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  • #21
    Re: Is WDW out of room?

    Originally posted by KingEric View Post
    If you look at the map I created, you will see that the planning has really been very poor.
    +1

    Originally posted by PSUMark View Post
    It's such a shame, because up until about 1988 or so, everything was meticulously planned and very deliberate and intentional. Then Eisner came in and "ZOMGz!!!!!1 Expansion everywheres!!!!!!!!!1!!!!11"
    The problem I don't think is the expansion, but moreso the halfcocked way that they expanded...building two parks and multiple multiple hotels with enough space between them using up more space true, but it gives a better sense of immersion and helps with the relaxing atmosphere IMO..

    the problem is that most of what they expanded with other than the resorts are half complete..
    The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
    -George S. Patton

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    • #22
      Re: Is WDW out of room?

      Originally posted by ORD84 View Post
      The problem I don't think is the expansion, but moreso the halfcocked way that they expanded...building two parks and multiple multiple hotels with enough space between them using up more space true, but it gives a better sense of immersion and helps with the relaxing atmosphere IMO..

      the problem is that most of what they expanded with other than the resorts are half complete..
      Oh I agree that the problem isn't expansion per se. It's expansion without thinking about how the said expansion fits into the overall resort plan (once Eisner came onboard there really wasn't an overall resort plan) and how said expansion impacts guest transportation. This is maddening especially because the original purpose of the Disney World project was to demonstrate ideal city planning and transportation methods. Now WDW is just as disorganized and has all the transportation infrastructure problems as almost any other project its size.
      I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
      -Walt Disney

      sigpic

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      • #23
        Re: Is WDW out of room?

        Originally posted by KingEric View Post
        If you look at the map I created, you will see that the planning has really been very poor.
        While you might think it is poor, fact is that much of the land that appears to be available is unsuitable for development. There are a number of reasons for this. Some is set aside for conservation, other parts are used as wetlands to offset already developed land with solid foundations not allowing rain water to seep in to the ground, and other parts are actually unsuitable to support a structure.
        Recently, the resort has done its best to create more wetlands than were already in existence. The new Tree Houses have a smaller footprint than the originals, thus increasing the square footage of wetlands surrounding the structures.
        For any land reclaimed from Seven Seas Lagoon in order to build the Grand Floridian DVC, the same square footage had to be carved in to land surrounding Bay Lake.

        While some people like to think that Michael Eisner threw darts at a map and said "let's build it there", there are technical reasons as to why and how everything was built on the property.
        sigpic


        Originally posted by Phonedave
        Well, if your parents can't teach you, maybe you can learn from a taser.

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        • #24
          Re: Is WDW out of room?

          Originally posted by PSUMark View Post
          Yes. This.

          About 1/3 of the property is developed. 1/3 is set aside for conservation, and 1/3 is open for future development. So there's theoretically enough room for WDW to nearly double its current size.



          Generally Jim Hill is not to be trusted but I think in this case he's correct. EPCOT Center and MGM Studios both increased the amount of time guests stayed at WDW on average. DAK didn't, which is why there are currently no plans to add any additional parks, and likely won't be for a very long time.

          Personally, I think all four parks need more attractions before they even consider adding another park. DHS isn't a full day park, and DAK wouldn't be either if it didn't have super-short hours. Even MK, which has the most attractions out of the four, pales in comparison to DL, and FLE is only a net gain of one attraction. WDW just needs more attractions in its existing parks.
          Sadly they probably never considered that AK was just not a very good park and as such not a good measure of viability... the fact that Universal can continue to thrive as well as other attractions near Disney tells me that if you built something that interested people they would stay for it. I'm guessing now that there are many people that go to WDW and then take a day or two away from it to visit the other attraction nearby... those missed opportunities are because they don't have anything better than the competition.

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          • #25
            Re: Is WDW out of room?

            Originally posted by WDW Monorail View Post
            While you might think it is poor, fact is that much of the land that appears to be available is unsuitable for development. There are a number of reasons for this. Some is set aside for conservation, other parts are used as wetlands to offset already developed land with solid foundations not allowing rain water to seep in to the ground, and other parts are actually unsuitable to support a structure.
            Recently, the resort has done its best to create more wetlands than were already in existence. The new Tree Houses have a smaller footprint than the originals, thus increasing the square footage of wetlands surrounding the structures.
            For any land reclaimed from Seven Seas Lagoon in order to build the Grand Floridian DVC, the same square footage had to be carved in to land surrounding Bay Lake.

            While some people like to think that Michael Eisner threw darts at a map and said "let's build it there", there are technical reasons as to why and how everything was built on the property.
            Their is space along the seven seas Lagoons for additional hotels and their is space for additional theme parks as well as development for the current theme parks. DHS and AK need to become more full day parks before they consider a fifth theme park. Whats happening with the attendance trend at AK is very encouraging, once Avatarland opens it should crack the 10 million mark if not higher. I think once disney sees the results of Avatar Land they will consider the fifth park and who knows by that time they may have bought out the theme park rights for marvel.

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            • #26
              Re: Is WDW out of room?

              Originally posted by lighttragic View Post
              ...and who knows by that time they may have bought out the theme park rights for marvel.
              If the "conventional wisdom" regarding Marvel theme park rights is correct, Disney can't buy out the rights - that's not an option in the contract. The only way Disney can get the rights to include Marvel attractions in a theme park east of the Mississippi is for Universal to discontinue operation of all of their Marvel attractions.

              If the above is true, you can be sure that UOR will never do that if for no other reason than to prevent the rights from reverting to Disney.
              I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
              -Walt Disney

              sigpic

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              • #27
                Re: Is WDW out of room?

                Originally posted by PSUMark View Post
                If the "conventional wisdom" regarding Marvel theme park rights is correct, Disney can't buy out the rights - that's not an option in the contract. The only way Disney can get the rights to include Marvel attractions in a theme park east of the Mississippi is for Universal to discontinue operation of all of their Marvel attractions.

                If the above is true, you can be sure that UOR will never do that if for no other reason than to prevent the rights from reverting to Disney.
                A contract does not need a clause in it to allow for a buy out to be an option. The problem is that Universal can ask for anything they desire in exchange for them giving up the rights to the characters. There is no expiration or renegotiations and the royalty fee is set, increasing only with inflation.

                None of this is speculation. The contract is a matter of public record and available from the SEC.
                Marvel Agreement between MCA Inc. and Marvel Entertainment Group

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                • #28
                  Re: Is WDW out of room?

                  Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                  A contract does not need a clause in it to allow for a buy out to be an option. The problem is that Universal can ask for anything they desire in exchange for them giving up the rights to the characters. There is no expiration or renegotiations and the royalty fee is set, increasing only with inflation.

                  None of this is speculation. The contract is a matter of public record and available from the SEC.
                  Marvel Agreement between MCA Inc. and Marvel Entertainment Group
                  Wow, I wasn't aware of that. I thought this was just typical Disney message board "received wisdom." Thanks for the info!
                  I knew if this business was ever to get anywhere, if this business was ever to grow, it could never do it by having to answer to someone unsympathetic to its possibilities, by having to answer to someone with only one thought or interest, namely profits. For my idea of how to make profits has differed greatly from those who generally control businesses such as ours. I have blind faith in the policy that quality, tempered with good judgment and showmanship, will win against all odds.
                  -Walt Disney

                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Is WDW out of room?

                    Originally posted by PSUMark View Post
                    Wow, I wasn't aware of that. I thought this was just typical Disney message board "received wisdom." Thanks for the info!
                    You're welcome. If I can find the time this summer to do the digging, I really want to find the Avatar contract.

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                    • #30
                      Re: Is WDW out of room?

                      That's because Animal Kingdom is a terrible park that is hot and tiring (especially in the summer), closes early, and really doesn't have a "theme" going for it outside of "animals". The way they designed it, it has no pavilions, no central theme, and few "rest stops"...it's a nature hike from the moment you enter until you leave. And that's...bad design, if you expect people to stay in the park all day.

                      I think that park could be dramatically improved, not with thrill rides, but with boots on the ground. Interactive cast members who inform and entertain guests about what exactly they are looking at, and why. It's largely a zoo. So, treat it as such and make it the best zoo in the world. Otherwise, why keep it in operation?

                      They should also build on the "international pavilion" aspect, and do more to bring the cultures of the worlds into play.

                      I hate that park, and generally do it for one day, though I go to the other parks several times in my visits (I stay for 14 days a year). They spent all their money on facility, and not enough on human assets, in my opinion.

                      ---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 12:33 AM ----------

                      Avatarland is a stupid idea. It's a half baked movie that made a lot of money due to hype and good marketing. After people have seen it a few times, I doubt they ever look at it again.

                      Ask yourself, when was the last time you watched "Avatar"? Or had an urge to? The story was simple and predictable. Just like everything else James Cameron has done.

                      It certainly doesn't need to be a "park expansion"...it's not a "Potter killer"...and in 10 years, the Potter at Universal will be old and out of date...what will they do then. You should NEVER plot a long term investment using short term metrics.

                      It seems they don't teach that in school anymore.
                      1982 - Contemporary (1 week), 1987 - Visit (2 weeks, offsite), 1988 - Visit (1 week, offsite), 1989 - Visit (3 weeks, offsite), 1990 - Visit (5 weeks, offsite), 1991 - Visit (6 weeks, offsite), 1992 - Visit (6 weeks, offsite)
                      1993 - Visit (6 weeks, offsite), 1994 - Visit (6 weeks, offsite), 1995 - Visit (6 weeks, offsite)
                      __________________
                      2010 - Carribean Beach (2 weeks), 2011 - Carribean Beach (2 weeks), 2012 - Pop Century (2 weeks...upcoming)

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                      • #31
                        Re: Is WDW out of room?

                        Hum. I like AK a lot. Probably #2 on my favs list. Tusker House is a great place to eat. The Lion King show is great. Nemo show is great. The Dinosaur ride and Yeti.. what's not to like?? or love!
                        Disney Pin Trading

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                        • #32
                          Re: Is WDW out of room?

                          Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                          A contract does not need a clause in it to allow for a buy out to be an option. The problem is that Universal can ask for anything they desire in exchange for them giving up the rights to the characters. There is no expiration or renegotiations and the royalty fee is set, increasing only with inflation.

                          None of this is speculation. The contract is a matter of public record and available from the SEC.
                          Marvel Agreement between MCA Inc. and Marvel Entertainment Group
                          There's nothing preventing Disney from renegotiating the rights to Marvel. Disney only has to offer the right price.

                          My offer.

                          1. Royalty free use of existing characters in Universal Parks only.
                          2. Exclusive use of existing characters in Universal Parks, east of the Mississippi. (Spiderman, Hulk, etc.)
                          3. Fee of $___ amount paid to Universal.

                          In exchange,

                          1. Disney rights to use Marvel characters not currently featured in Universal such as Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

                          2. Disney not allowed to use Marvel characters exclusive to Universal worldwide.

                          The result of this contract rewrite is Universal is assured that it can use existing Marvel characters in its parks for a long as it wants and it is assured that Disney won't use them either in its parks anywhere, which Disney can do if it wishes for Spiderman and Hulk in the west coast or worldwide.

                          Disney can use Avengers and other untapped Marvel characters in Florida, California, and worldwide. Of course, Disney will be competing with Universal with Marvel. Marvel against Marvel.

                          Universal gets paid for the priviledge and it never has to pay a licensing fee ever.

                          The trump card is Universal asks to use Spiderman and Hulk in the West Coast to better equalize the competition. I'm unsure Disney will agree and it might just scuttle any renegotiation.

                          Of course, Disney might just counter that they won't use Avengers and untapped Marvel characters in the East Coast, thus leaving Marvel in one theme park per regional location. This might just work, but I would love to see Avengers in Disney Hollywood Studios, which will probably never come to pass. Come to think of it, Disney can already do this so why bother having a renegotiation if the intent is to have Marvel in Florida.

                          ---------- Post added 06-14-2012 at 03:17 PM ----------

                          Originally posted by BC_DisneyGeek View Post
                          It wouldn't shock me if they added a fifth park instead of adding much needed capacity to the existing parks (Disney Studios in particular).

                          Many people still think Walt Disney World's four parks means there are double the attractions that the Disneyland Resorts' two theme parks hold.
                          Disney should consider a major expansion to its existing parks before embarking on a fifth park. The concept of theme parks at Disney has completely missed its mark. Theme parks should be designed to keep people inside, playing all day long while eating and buying. The half day parks makes that impossible. You're spending more time park hopping than slowing down and enjoying it.

                          Disney has lost its way with WDW. There just isn't enough to do to justify 4 days there. Maybe that is why in recent advertisements, they have 5 night packages, which is 4 full days. This is just enough to make you feel you gotten your money's worth, but maybe you didn't so you will do a side trip to Universal's Harry Potter attraction.
                          Last edited by StevenW; 06-14-2012, 02:20 PM.

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                          • #33
                            Re: Is WDW out of room?

                            Originally posted by lighttragic View Post
                            Their is space along the seven seas Lagoons for additional hotels and their is space for additional theme parks as well as development for the current theme parks.
                            Actually some sites are unusable, they tried building a hotel on one of those sites after the Grand Floridians success and anything they put into the ground sank, so unless they want to build four hotels and end up with the strongest hotel ever built some areas are going to remain undeveloped.


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