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Avatar Land First Look

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  • #61
    Re: Avatar Land First Look

    Originally posted by WDWorldly View Post
    Agreed--the response to "Avatar" really shows how insufferable the online Disney fan community can be. It follows the same usual pattern -- groupthink goads everyone into having the same banal, cynical opinion (the ink hasn't dried on the Imagineering plans but its a complete disaster), then when evidence arises that clearly demonstrates it might not be as bad as everyone imagined, it becomes "Soarin with banshees" and "Jungle Cruise after dark."

    "The Wizarding World of Harry Potter" cost $200 million, partially re-theming an existing land. "Avatar" is a $500 million expansion of Animal Kingdom that today's news shows will also lead to positive changes in the rest of the park, and the concept art looks impressive - maybe it's not so crazy to think it might turn out well?
    I think there are different measures of success. I think Disney can build a successful area themed to Avatar. Do I think that Avatar is a solid IP? No.

    Avatar IP, maybe worth about 1 billion in revenue.

    Harry Potter IP, maybe worth about 27 billion.

    In terms of sticking power, something that generates 27 times the revenue is going to have a much better staying power in terms branding. Disney typically invests in things that have stickiness in terms of IP. That isn't to say that it couldn't be amazing, or fantastic, just that Avatar doesn't lend itself to the typical IP traits that has created successful brands.

    Example. Star Wars is the kind of IP Disney does well with. Marvel is the kind Disney does well with. I don't see the attributes of Avatar and how it fits. Disney can create amazing spectacular areas and themes and rides. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to spend $500 million.

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    • #62
      Re: Avatar Land First Look

      Originally posted by Garthilk View Post
      I think there are different measures of success. I think Disney can build a successful area themed to Avatar. Do I think that Avatar is a solid IP? No.
      I wouldn't want to reject Avatarland out of hand as having completely no interest to me. It will be interesting to see how WDI utilizes various new tech and lighting effects, I kinda think Avatarland will have an appeal like the Main Street Electrical Parade. But unlike the MSEP, I don't have a connection to any of the characters/animals, it would be just, "neat there's a glowy butterfly-thing"

      I'm kinda not into generic rides with mushrooms and elves and glowy things, like in Europa Park:

      Elf Ride - Europa Park - YouTube

      Or Dreamflight in Efteling:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoS4iT9RPq4

      Not saying I wouldn't see Avatarland if I go to Orlando after it opens, but I'd make Potterland and the Be Our Guest Restaurant/Seven Dwarfs Mine Train at New Fantasyland the priority.

      Disney doing Lord of the Rings would be awesome, though, IMHO.
      Last edited by chesirecat; 10-12-2013, 01:15 PM.

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      • #63
        Re: Avatar Land First Look

        Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
        I'm not at all excited about Avatarland, maybe because it is kinda a made-up place in Animal Kingdom, without any historical kernel.
        Disney's Animal Kingdom focuses on three broad classifications of animals: those that exist in today's reality; those that did exist, but are now extinct (i.e., dinosaurs); and those that only exist in the realm of fantasy.
        Follow me on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/malin1804

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        • #64
          Re: Avatar Land First Look

          Originally posted by Malin View Post
          Disney's Animal Kingdom focuses on three broad classifications of animals: those that exist in today's reality; those that did exist, but are now extinct (i.e., dinosaurs); and those that only exist in the realm of fantasy.
          You're right that the Yeti is mythical, but it is a mythology going back decades, and everything else around Expedition Everest is made to look historically accurate so that when you see the Yeti you believe it.

          It's like what Tony Baxter said about Cinderella, another studio at the time wondered why Disney was researching for the backdrops in Cinderella if the story had that fantasy element (why not just make-up the backdrops? Make them look fantastical?), and it is because if you believe in the world of Cinderella, then you'll believe when a pumpkin turns into her coach. Fantasyland at Disney is home to a lot of characters who don't exist in real life, but the added details help us to believe.

          With Avatarland, it seems that almost everything is fabricated, without much historical references, and without a tie-in to characters that people are familiar with. Hogsmeade at Uni is not a real place, but it looks like it could almost be a real place.

          Remember Light Magic? Disneyland's ill-fated parade that used similar lighting technology to create a fairy world, it was visually interesting, at least for the first couple of minutes, but people were left scratching their heads as it was pure fantasy, almost psychedelic fantasy, IMHO.

          Maybe Avatarland will be a hit, but for me, personally, I'd get kinda bored looking at my 12th fake glowing butterfly and third glowing alligator . . . at some point my brain would kinda recognize the whole thing as being artificial, I think you need a little grounding in reality so that you can swallow the fantastical stuff.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Avatar Land First Look

            I hope everyone realizes that Cameron is signed on for another 3 Avatar films. The franchise isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 2015-2020 is going to be remarkable for Disney. The new Star Wars films, Avatar tetralogy, and the crazy train in Marvel. I'm guessing the next decade in the parks will be drawing heavily from those three.
            Last edited by Kenny Loggins; 10-12-2013, 01:41 PM.

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            • #66
              Re: Avatar Land First Look

              You know what had awesome concept art? Antarctica Penguin Adventure. Go ahead and ask Sea World if they want to go back in time and reinvest their money.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Avatar Land First Look

                Disney's Animal Kingdom is about man's connection with his world. The mythical animals were never wholly fantasy. They were considered real and played a very real part in human cultures. There is no authenticity in using wholly fictional creatures, be they of this planet or another.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Avatar Land First Look

                  3 points:

                  1. As with most posters - Looks pretty
                  2. 500 million budget? - After hearing the ridiculous amounts for recent projects, I've got a bad feeling 500 million is not going to go far enough.
                  3. 2017 opening? Nearly a HALF DECADE away. And yet - Diagon Alley can be built within a year. What is it with Disney where a "Tea Cup" ride could take 2 years to build these days? What the frig is it??

                  So now that I've heard the news ... I can go back to sleep now .. and forget about WDW till I'm 5 years older. night-night
                  MY SIGNATURE:
                  Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Avatar Land First Look

                    Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
                    3 points:

                    1. As with most posters - Looks pretty
                    2. 500 million budget? - After hearing the ridiculous amounts for recent projects, I've got a bad feeling 500 million is not going to go far enough.
                    3. 2017 opening? Nearly a HALF DECADE away. And yet - Diagon Alley can be built within a year. What is it with Disney where a "Tea Cup" ride could take 2 years to build these days? What the frig is it??

                    So now that I've heard the news ... I can go back to sleep now .. and forget about WDW till I'm 5 years older. night-night
                    FYI....D.Alley took ALOT longer from the artist concepts to where it is today. It was halfway built before it was announced....lol....Im looking forward to seeing what the imagineers can do with telling of this story ! The last few years, all you heard on here was how Disney didn't do anything without the commercialism aspect included. Now, here is an attraction that DOESNT have much in the way of merchandising, and the same complaints are being heard....lol. This movie was, and still is, HUGE overseas, and who has Disney been trying to attract more? People from overseas. BTW....isn't there an Avatar cartoon on tv right now?

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                    • #70
                      Re: Avatar Land First Look

                      Originally posted by redrhino54 View Post
                      FYI....D.Alley took ALOT longer from the artist concepts to where it is today. It was halfway built before it was announced....lol....Im looking forward to seeing what the imagineers can do with telling of this story ! The last few years, all you heard on here was how Disney didn't do anything without the commercialism aspect included. Now, here is an attraction that DOESNT have much in the way of merchandising, and the same complaints are being heard....lol. This movie was, and still is, HUGE overseas, and who has Disney been trying to attract more? People from overseas. BTW....isn't there an Avatar cartoon on tv right now?
                      Then wouldn't it have made more sense to have Avatar attractions in the overseas parks where most of the stronger fan base is at? Regardless of who's attracted to the movie, I doubt Disney blew $500 million on this theme park property without the intention of getting a massive return on it (especially through the critical core of merchandising). And there's no guarantee that the overseas fans (who don't frequent WDW as much as Americans do) will give Disney those profits they hope to get from this particular franchise.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Avatar Land First Look

                        Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
                        What is it with Disney where a "Tea Cup" ride could take 2 years to build these days? What the frig is it??
                        To put it charitably, it's the result of an enormous bureaucracy that strangles itself with communication dysfunction, corporate egos, inter-division competition and internal politics.

                        To that point, the joke about Avatarland is the idea of the film industry's most My Way Or The Highway media monster "creatively collaborating" with the industry's most My Way Or The Highway director... who also happens to own the one-trick-pony franchise that the media monster is licensing.
                        Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-12-2013, 08:00 PM.
                        "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                        it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                        together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                        designed to appeal to everyone."

                        - Walt Disney

                        "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                        - Michael Eisner

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Avatar Land First Look

                          One of the Avatar "attractions" descriptions reminded me of this AMC Theater Coke promo



                          Even if they used a "Soarin Over California" type of viewing mechnism for this, I don't think the Avatar Attraction would be a match against Harry Potter at Islands of Adventure. In fact, I don't think an Avatar "film for Soarin" would even be a match for the original Soarin over California movie.

                          Disney HAS to do better than just a theater advertisement for Coke.
                          Last edited by Aladdin; 10-12-2013, 06:15 PM.
                          Critter Country's a mess ev'r since the Country Bears were kicked out. Ya can't cover pooh with honey and 'spect people ta like it.
                          An Adventurers It's Time to Put the Spotlight Back on Bring Back the REAL Disney Gallery
                          Life for Me! ~ ~ ~ Melvin, Buff, and Max!!! ~~~~ Dump the Dream Suite!
                          Meese-ka Moose-ka Mice-Chatter!

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                          • #73
                            Re: Avatar Land First Look

                            Originally posted by ursaguy View Post
                            You know what had awesome concept art? Antarctica Penguin Adventure. Go ahead and ask Sea World if they want to go back in time and reinvest their money.
                            Sea World has nothing to do with Disney. So no point in being negative towards the concept art.
                            I really doubt they'd go cheap with this. If they do it right, as well with the movies coming out at the same time, this can be really amazing.

                            I will say if what's built is far off from the concept, I will be disappointed. But I don't have enough information to be negative about the project, what's shown so far looks awesome.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Avatar Land First Look

                              Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                              You're right that the Yeti is mythical, but it is a mythology going back decades, and everything else around Expedition Everest is made to look historically accurate so that when you see the Yeti you believe it.

                              It's like what Tony Baxter said about Cinderella, another studio at the time wondered why Disney was researching for the backdrops in Cinderella if the story had that fantasy element (why not just make-up the backdrops? Make them look fantastical?), and it is because if you believe in the world of Cinderella, then you'll believe when a pumpkin turns into her coach. Fantasyland at Disney is home to a lot of characters who don't exist in real life, but the added details help us to believe.

                              With Avatarland, it seems that almost everything is fabricated, without much historical references, and without a tie-in to characters that people are familiar with. Hogsmeade at Uni is not a real place, but it looks like it could almost be a real place.

                              Remember Light Magic? Disneyland's ill-fated parade that used similar lighting technology to create a fairy world, it was visually interesting, at least for the first couple of minutes, but people were left scratching their heads as it was pure fantasy, almost psychedelic fantasy, IMHO.

                              Maybe Avatarland will be a hit, but for me, personally, I'd get kinda bored looking at my 12th fake glowing butterfly and third glowing alligator . . . at some point my brain would kinda recognize the whole thing as being artificial, I think you need a little grounding in reality so that you can swallow the fantastical stuff.
                              Very well said! Hits the nail on the head for what is immersive about Fantasyland, Frontierland and Adventureland, and artificial about Avatarland.
                              "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                              it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                              together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                              designed to appeal to everyone."

                              - Walt Disney

                              "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                              - Michael Eisner

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                The mythological characters part of the park has been with it since the planning phase of this park. This is why we have a Unicorn parking lot and a dragon in the logo.
                                DisneyTwins
                                Since May 2003

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                                • #76
                                  Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                  Originally posted by BlAcKoUt510 View Post
                                  Sea World has nothing to do with Disney. So no point in being negative towards the concept art.
                                  I really doubt they'd go cheap with this. If they do it right, as well with the movies coming out at the same time, this can be really amazing.

                                  I will say if what's built is far off from the concept, I will be disappointed. But I don't have enough information to be negative about the project, what's shown so far looks awesome.
                                  My point is what's shown so far is likely misleading.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                    Originally posted by Disneytwins View Post
                                    The mythological characters part of the park has been with it since the planning phase of this park. This is why we have a Unicorn parking lot and a dragon in the logo.
                                    Since when did Avatar become a piece of mythology? The unicorn and dragon were to be celebrated like the yeti, as a very real part of how we have understood and connected with our world.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                      I think this is Disney wining and dining James Cameron to get him to make his next franchise with them. This was announced back in 2011 and concept art is just hitting now. I doubt it gets built.

                                      James here is some money to fund your new Avatar movies pretend to make an attraction and film your next block buster with the rat.

                                      A giant ice berg with the Titanic and a deep sea sub ride would be better James Cameron IP then this. It reminds me of the Spencer store at the mall. I thought neon and black lights went out with the 1990s

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                        I gather that they didn't show that at OUR D23 Expo in Anaheim because there would be very little else to show at the Expo in Japan?
                                        I'm guessing that they are attempting to sell the ride tech behind at least one of the rides to the Oriental Land Company for use in Tokyo Disney Resort.

                                        This Boat Ride I expect will be similar to the new boat ride being built inside the Castle at Shanghai Disneyland. Sneak Peek: Enchanted Storybook Castle at Shanghai Disneyland « Disney Parks Blog
                                        I totally agree: they are probably the same ride systems with different thematic elements dressing up the building and the rides themselves. Looking at the model, it kind of looks as if Floating Mountain Mountain is Shanghai Disneyland's Castle in different drag.

                                        I wonder if the banshee ride will be the Hong Kong Iron Man simulator experience in different clothing as well. (I hate direct clones, so I prefer brand imagineering over attraction copies any day of the week.)

                                        It also makes sense from a business perspective to monetize their investment in the tech and materials across as many theme park properties as they can.

                                        I think it is shortsighted of Disney to just go ahead and spend loads of money to produce a land based on a movie that was financially successful, but not memorable. Yes the visuals were stunning. But then I felt the characters were lacking, and I can't seem to remember anything about them.
                                        I personally thought it was an adult retelling of the Smurfs, with humanity as Gargamel, and the blue people as the Smurfs. Having said that, the movie is the most profitable of all time, the director has an amazing track record, so his sequel(s) may very well build up the Avatar-verse. I don't think it was short-sighted of Disney at all to partner with James Cameron, nor is it out of the Iger playbook to partner or absorb creative talent and leadership in the industry.

                                        For an anecdotal counterpoint (not that anecdotes are evidence,) I'm one of the few people who really don't like the Harry Potter movies or books. I've seen them, as my peeps are into the franchise, but I'm just not really into Harry and his Amazing Friends, any more than my friends are into Spidey and the Hulk. It doesn't remotely detract from the utter spectacle that is Harry Potter World at IOA for me and nor does not liking Spidey and the Hulk detract from those killer rides. If it's a good theme park experience, who cares?

                                        Unfortunately they only decide now, to give it to us, while force feeding Avatar down our throats. BLECHHHH!
                                        The beauty of capitalism is choice: you don't want to "eat" Avatar, don't go to "Animal Kingdom." It's not the Aquarium in Pyongyang.

                                        Disney typically invests in things that have stickiness in terms of IP. That isn't to say that it couldn't be amazing, or fantastic, just that Avatar doesn't lend itself to the typical IP traits that has created successful brands.
                                        I agree, today. But I also think this was about James Cameron, and getting his energy and creativity aligned with the Disney company. Which is to say that I think this IP acquisition is only partially about Avatar itself, and partially about Cameron himself.

                                        My opinion on the land: it looks like really interesting concept art, and that it's probably a re-theme of some of the new attractions they're building for either Shanghai or Hong Kong. I'm looking forward to it, and for DAK to FINALLY be more than a half-day park. FINALLY.

                                        My opinion on the night safari and tree show: heck, yes! Bring it on!

                                        My opinion on the haterz: gonna hate.

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                                        • #80
                                          Re: Avatar Land First Look

                                          ^ couldn't agree more excellent post!
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