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Just hit me: Disney is NOT making more monorails

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Timon View Post

    Disney only needs to order up a replacement set of 12 trains - Bombardier 6 car INNOVIA 200's to get a state of the art monorail. Since the WDW trains are not full size they would not have the capacity of the INNOVIA 300 nor the walk thru design. Imaginearing would conceive the exterior and interior look for the Disney magic touch but under the skin would be proven Mass Transit gear.
    Except the 200's aren't monorails. They're automated trains on a flat track. You can see them at a number of airports (such as DFW). Not something that would work on Disney's monorail beam at all.

    the 300's are actually a true monorail, unlike the 200's. But as you said, they are big for Disney's purpose. But I see it being far easier to scale those down to size to be able to work with Disney's line than trying to modify the 200's. It would be easier to build a whole new train than use the 200's.

    other than that, very true and good insight. :-)

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    • #22
      Originally posted by sirwillow View Post

      Except the 200's aren't monorails.
      sirwillow - You are talking about Bombardier's INNOVIA APM 200 an automated people mover often found in airports like DFW, Phoenix and London Heathrow and indeed they are not monorails on a single track but dual beamways either elevated or mounted on the ground.

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      .
      Bombardier's first monorail after buying the Disney Monorail patents was to build the INNOVIA 200 for Las Vegas which today runs over 4 miles on elevated beamways to 7 stations. They are planning a small addition of 1 mile and one station.

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      The INNOVIA 200 has the same bogies and overall dimensions as the Mark VI. Additionally they have been fully automated since grand opening in 2004. I believe the INNOVIA 200 is only built on request, these days. 12 trains would be a small order for Bombardier which builds all types of rail transportation all over the world.

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      Every year Disney World grows more and more congested. The recent changes to Disney Springs has made Light Rail all but impossible to put in at ground level with Buena Vista Dr now 8+ lanes wide. light rail could be elevated but then it would be more expensive than a monorail and darn ugly. The Skyliner might be a good feeder system from limited areas but probably couldn't match the 150,000 capacity per day of the Mark VI.

      A logical choice would be a new line using the INNOVIA 300 to go from Disney Spring westward picking up Typhoon Lagoon, Epcot (XFR to MK line), Yacht & Beach/Swan & Dolphin, DHS(XFR to local SkyLine), Blizzard Beach(XFR to Skyliner), Animal Kingdom and AK Resort. New Skyliner from All Start Resorts to Blizzard Beach and Coronado. New Skyliner from Typhoon Lagoon to Old Key West, Port Orleans, Saratoga, Disney Springs-Marketplace. This would tie most areas together for the EAST-WEST Monorail Line.

      A INNOVIA 300 7 cars = 1000 passengers
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      It's REAL.
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      • #23
        Originally posted by Timon View Post
        sirwillow - You are talking about Bombardier's INNOVIA APM 200 an automated people mover often found in airports like DFW, Phoenix and London Heathrow and indeed they are not monorails on a single track but dual beamways either elevated or mounted on the ground.
        Apparently I forgot to thank you for the correction and information. sorry about that.

        I just hope that Disney is actually looking at all of it and thinking seriously about replacing the fleet. I really don't think that the cable sky cabins are going to do what the hype says (frankly I'm expecting them to be a big bomb given the Florida weather) and that replacement of their monorails is long overdue and badly needed.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by DisneyDarian View Post
          Anyone remember Disney's attempt decades ago to run a monorail spur from the Orlando Airport (MCO) to WDW? It was an EPIC battle. The city complained bitterly that this would prevent local businesses from having access to Disney Guests and as a result, (they claimed) many non-Disney jobs would be lost, along with local tax revenue for Orlando. Disney tried for years to get the city fathers to see reason, but Orlando wouldn't budge. So, Disney gave Orlando the billion dollar middle finger and put in place the same sort of system to transport Guests unmolested from the airport to WDW but using buses instead of monorails, which Orlando couldn't interfere with. But this outcome was apparently was the figurative "wooden stake" through the heart of the monorail. Had the line to MCO been built, other expansions would likely have followed as costs per monorail and cost of the concrete rails would have gone down simply due to economy of scale. (since more are made, the cost per unit goes down.) Lift a glass to what "Might Have Been" and to the mid-century modernism style of design Walt loved so very much.
          Bet the City of Orlando and Orange county are kicking themselves right now for this short sighted decision. Traffic for Orlando and MCO in particular is a NIGHTMARE at all hours of the day.
          The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
          -George S. Patton

          Comment


          • #25
            UPDATE


            OP here again. OK, take this with a HUGE handful / bag of salt, but credible rumors are now circulating that Disney has ordered / will order / ? is in talks to order? a new monorail fleet from Canadian transportation company Bombardier. Speculation is that, one of the reasons the Main Street Theater project (which had already started preliminary work) was canceled so quickly and unceremoniously was to re-route $$$ funds to help with the new monorails.

            Consider this wishful thinking mixed with some fact (i.e. Disney probably HAS looked into purchasing new monorails at some point recently, just to get a good estimate on the cost).

            As previously documented in an above post by Timon, more than likely this would be a custom version of the Bombardier Innova 300 series monorails. They look close to WDW monorail fleet in dimension/size, but would need to be modified for clearance issues and track width (the only real clearance problem I see is at the Contemporary Resort station above the Grand Canyon Concourse).

            I could see this POSSIBLY happening in a few ways.

            1) Introduce the new monorail fleet on the EPCOT line only (at first). ONLY two stops on the circuit. Gives them a chance to get the "bugs out" and work out the timing before introducing the new fleet on the two much busier stop-and-go WDW hotel and express circuits. In this way, WDW could pull the Mark VI trains from the EPCOT line and have them as "back-up" for the Magic Kingdom line. Also, this would allow testing of the new control system computers on an "isolated" line (the EPCOT circuit) without affecting the MK lines.
            2) Slowly transition the new trains into both monorail circuits, so that you have old and new simultaneously. Again, the issue would be two different control systems to govern the monorails (which I am sure would be a logistical mess)
            3) Take both the MK and EPCOT circuits completely offline simultaneously, to transition over. In my opinion, this would take quite some time as the antiquated Mark VI control computers would have to be removed and new systems installed and debugged.

            There are other considerations as well. Would the 5 decades old monorail support beams handle the new cars? Would sections need to be replaced before introduction of the new fleet? What are the power requirements for a new fleet? Would the monorail beams need to be upgraded for the electrical grid? And could the Monorail barn handle a brand new fleet? In other words, you need replacement parts and equipment ready to go, in addition to technician training on the new fleet.
             
            Last edited by chris2fett; 04-21-2018, 05:35 AM.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by sirwillow View Post

              Except the 200's aren't monorails. They're automated trains on a flat track. You can see them at a number of airports (such as DFW). Not something that would work on Disney's monorail beam at all.

              the 300's are actually a true monorail, unlike the 200's. But as you said, they are big for Disney's purpose. But I see it being far easier to scale those down to size to be able to work with Disney's line than trying to modify the 200's. It would be easier to build a whole new train than use the 200's.

              other than that, very true and good insight. :-)
              This is incorrect. Bombardier does indeed have a Innovia 200 MONORAIL.

              http://www.monorails.org/pdfs/INNOVIA%20200.pdf

              The WDW Mark 6 trains (and the Mark 4 before them) are the predecessors of the Innovia 200 monorail line which Las Vegas now uses.

              The Innovia 300 monorail line features a wider beam that would not be compatible with the WDW system.

              Disney could go through the expense have having Innovia 300 trains modified to fit on a Innovia 200 track but wouldn't it be easier to just Order Innovia 200 trains that already fit the track? Then all you have to account for is station clearances since actually 200 trains are slightly larger then WDW's current fleet. But at least they can use the track as is.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by DisneyDarian View Post
                Anyone remember Disney's attempt decades ago to run a monorail spur from the Orlando Airport (MCO) to WDW? It was an EPIC battle. The city complained bitterly that this would prevent local businesses from having access to Disney Guests and as a result, (they claimed) many non-Disney jobs would be lost, along with local tax revenue for Orlando. Disney tried for years to get the city fathers to see reason, but Orlando wouldn't budge. So, Disney gave Orlando the billion dollar middle finger and put in place the same sort of system to transport Guests unmolested from the airport to WDW but using buses instead of monorails, which Orlando couldn't interfere with. But this outcome was apparently was the figurative "wooden stake" through the heart of the monorail. Had the line to MCO been built, other expansions would likely have followed as costs per monorail and cost of the concrete rails would have gone down simply due to economy of scale. (since more are made, the cost per unit goes down.) Lift a glass to what "Might Have Been" and to the mid-century modernism style of design Walt loved so very much.
                Anybody know of a source for more information on this? I've seen a lot of he said / she said on this issue, all pretty much coming from other Disney sites, but nothing whatsoever about it via Orlando Sentinel or anyone else who presumably would have been reporting on this while it was happening. Given that Orlando has always been absurdly accommodating to Disney on these matters, and that the few references to it I can find in the Sentinel seem to suggest that internal Disney politics killed the proposal, I'm inclined to see this as an urban legend... but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong!

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