Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pirates of the Caribbean closing April 23 to remove the auction scene

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by NotChuck View Post
    That might be true, but if "PC Culture" seeks to help move us all towards a more compassionate and understanding society, I'll gladly choose that over being indifferently self-absorbed and telling everyone that other people's struggles aren't my problem.
    I’m not interested in living in a “safe space” world.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

      You chose not to see sex is implied in the scene. Do you recall that before they added Captain Jack, there was a girl hiding in a barrel and the pirate next to the barrel was holding her dress. I see that as a clear implication that the pirate had intended to get her out of those clothes.

      The mayor is being dunked into the well with his head pointed up and is clearly able to resist such cobbled-together attempts to make him talk. There is even cutesy dialogue in which he refuses to tell them what they want. He's hardly portrayed as helpless. However, the women are chained together, held at gun point and aren't given any voice of their own in the scene.
      Uh huh. That’s what pirates did. What do you expect?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Professortango View Post

        Because its pretty obvious to our society that drowning mayors and burning down towns is bad. However, our society seems to have confusion over treating women as objects to be won after a victory.
        I honestly don’t think any child ever came off of that ride with an idea that in real life ot’s okay to kidnap women and auction them. I didn’t. Do you really believe that? Really?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

          Can't speak for anyone else, but yeah, I am fine with the other violence in the ride, because I am capable of considering things from a nuanced perspective and understand that action violence between two parties capable of defending themselves (<------that right there is a critical factor in this discussion), which has been romanticized throughout history and has made for some of its most exciting stories, is not the same thing as the heinous act of human trafficking, which intentionally targets a vulnerable segment of the population to sell them for profit and for the sexual gratification of others at the expense of the victim's well-being. I don't get what is so hard to grasp about this.

          Two people firing guns at each other = Fine.
          Swordfights = Fine.
          Cannon battles = Fine.

          A scene depicting a pirate shooting a pig or dog in the back of the head execution style for fun = Not fine.
          A pirate terrorizing a child = Not fine.
          A scene featuring actual, literal human trafficking? Maybe not as egregious as the other two in the way it is actually presented on the ride itself, but I can see why it would make some people uncomfortable given the nature of human trafficking.

          If you look at each of these scenarios and tell me you don't see the difference, I can only assume it's because you don't WANT to see the difference.
          You’re taking things waaaaaay too seriously there.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Meville View Post

            Are they really?

            Rampant sexual misconduct, continued sexual discrimination and the report that a Saudi Woman was given 24 months in jail for removing her head scarf; yeah, no issues there...
            And none of that has to do with POTC.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by shazang View Post
              Couple more things I'd like to add/remark upon:

              1) Though we're mostly talking about women here, I am thinking of any and all people who have had uncomfortable sexual experiences that don't want to be reminded of that by the auction scene. Everybody deserves to feel safe on a whimsical theme park ride
              No they don’t. No more than they have that right in a university setting (they don’t). No one has the right to not be offended. You are also responsible for your own emotions and emotional responses.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post
                Well, first of all, "virtue signaling" is a meaningless dog whistle. If we are to disregard any argument on the grounds that it's "virtue signaling," we might as well just throw them all out, because technically speaking, you yourself are virtue signaling by arguing in favor of anything you believe in.

                Second, I am not personally offended by the scene. I am not aghast every time I see it, nor do I wake up in a cold sweat at 3 am thinking about it. But there is not really any reason to keep it as it currently is except nostalgia. It wouldn't adversely affect the story of the ride or even really distract from it.

                Third, frankly, there are lots of goofy ways to present torture, and on the ride is no exception. You also never really get the impression that the man's life is in danger. On the flipside, there is no comedic way to present human trafficking. How many people do you know of who have had their heads dunked in a well? Because I don't know any. I would be surprised to find out that anyone currently alive in the United States has experienced that.
                Why are you biased towards people in the United States? What about people who are not U.S.citizens and have experienced that in a like manner? Ever heard of waterboarding? I bet you find that offensive. So should the well scene be taken out too?

                The fact that the bride auction scene is being equated to “Human Trafficking” in today’s sense is beyond ridiculous.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post
                  I’m not interested in living in a “safe space” world.
                  As a straight, white guy in a mostly middle/upper-middle-class town, I feel like I already live in a "safe space,"
                  and The University of Chicago's rejection of intellectual "safe spaces" SOUNDS appealing
                  (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...825-story.html),
                  but I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were in a minority that hasn't been treated as fairly as I've been treated.
                  Last edited by jcruise86; 04-15-2018, 09:12 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jcruise86 View Post

                    As a straight, white guy in a mostly middle/upper-middle-class town, I feel like I already live in a "safe space,"
                    and The University of Chicago's rejection of intellectual "safe spaces" SOUNDS appealing
                    (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...825-story.html),
                    but I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were in a minority that hasn't been treated as fairly as I've been treated.
                    As a gay, mixed background male, I am still against the ridiculous notion of “safe spaces” in universities (sorry, university is not where you go to be coddled and protected from the nastiness of the world), I will always be against the notion of “safe spaces” in universities full stop. And cheers to UofC for not bending to this “intellectual safe space” nonsense and doing the right thing. Oxford University did something, not the same, but in a similar vein, as well.

                    Now, how about them changes to POTC?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                      Why are you biased towards people in the United States? What about people who are not U.S.citizens and have experienced that in a like manner? Ever heard of waterboarding? I bet you find that offensive. So should the well scene be taken out too?

                      The fact that the bride auction scene is being equated to “Human Trafficking” in today’s sense is beyond ridiculous.
                      Ok, yeah, it applies to them too. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

                      I have already addressed the well scene. It's a goofy piece of cartoonish violence, and you never have the sense that the man is in any real danger. The auction scene, on the other hand, features a line of women captured by pirates, tied up and crying into handkerchiefs because they've been kidnapped to be sold to people against their will. Very, very different, and to even bring up the well scene or the gun violence on the ride is a red herring at this point. Of course it's being "equated" to human trafficking, because that's exactly what it is. What else do you call it when people are kidnapped and sold to complete strangers? If you are ok with scenes of human trafficking on the ride because you think Disneyland has an obligation to present a historically accurate portrayal of the time period, because Walt Disney himself had a hand in its design, or because you feel nostalgic for it, that's something that would be worth discussing. But it's undeniable that human trafficking is exactly what's going on in the scene.

                      Concerning your first comment about me taking this too seriously: that's a total non-contribution to the conversation. It's a discussion on a message board and I'm speaking my opinion just like you, thanks very much.
                      Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                      Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                      So so hyphy.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                        No they don’t. No more than they have that right in a university setting (they don’t). No one has the right to not be offended. You are also responsible for your own emotions and emotional responses.
                        People don't have a right to feel safe on a theme park ride or at their university? Give me a break. It's one thing to say that Disneyland and people's universities don't necessarily have an obligation to walk on eggshells and go out of their way to offend people (although in Disney's case it may be wise from a business standpoint to do so), but of course people deserve to feel safe on a theme park ride, or a college campus, or literally anywhere else at all. Come on, now.

                        I have said over and over that I don't personally find the scene particularly offensive, and it doesn't seem like a lot of other people do either, but I certainly see the case for changing it. So far I haven't heard a strong case for keeping it as-is aside from nostalgia or "toughen up, buttercup!" Your argument seems to fall into the latter group, which unfortunately doesn't do anything for me because it seems unconcerned with viewing things from another person's perspective.
                        Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                        Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                        So so hyphy.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                          Ok, yeah, it applies to them too. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

                          I have already addressed the well scene. It's a goofy piece of cartoonish violence, and you never have the sense that the man is in any real danger. The auction scene, on the other hand, features a line of women captured by pirates, tied up and crying into handkerchiefs because they've been kidnapped to be sold to people against their will. Very, very different, and to even bring up the well scene or the gun violence on the ride is a red herring at this point. Of course it's being "equated" to human trafficking, because that's exactly what it is. What else do you call it when people are kidnapped and sold to complete strangers? If you are ok with scenes of human trafficking on the ride because you think Disneyland has an obligation to present a historically accurate portrayal of the time period, because Walt Disney himself had a hand in its design, or because you feel nostalgic for it, that's something that would be worth discussing. But it's undeniable that human trafficking is exactly what's going on in the scene.

                          Concerning your first comment about me taking this too seriously: that's a total non-contribution to the conversation. It's a discussion on a message board and I'm speaking my opinion just like you, thanks very much.
                          If you find waterboarding offensive, the well scene should be offensive to you too, by your own logic. The well scene is torture by simulatimg drowning to get someone to talk.

                          I guess I’m 100% okay then with a scene of “human trafficking” then? And no, it’s not a “red herring” to bring up the other scenes. It’s the same concept. The PC police just want to pick and choose what’s supposedly “offensive” and inappropriate and what’s not. Poor little cartoon women, crying in their handkerchiefs. Seriously? No, the scene is not/was not bad or harmful. It was funny. Who wants the redhead? I do! And she can show me her larder side too! It’s unfortunate this twisted PC culture has gotten so out of hand, that an entire tounge in cheek cartoon ride about Pirates has to be censored by people who hold finger wagging, safe space, “it’s not right!” views. Views that are down right insipid and ridiculous. And yes, the auction scene being equated to “Human Trafficking” is pathetic and “taking things way to seriously”. As has already been stated, the Jungle Cruise will probably be the next target of the PC police.

                          Please, PC police, go home, lock your doors and windows, and stay in your safe spaces. The current and historical world is obviously too scary and offensive and upsetting for you to handle.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                            People don't have a right to feel safe on a theme park ride or at their university? Give me a break. It's one thing to say that Disneyland and people's universities don't necessarily have an obligation to walk on eggshells and go out of their way to offend people (although in Disney's case it may be wise from a business standpoint to do so), but of course people deserve to feel safe on a theme park ride, or a college campus, or literally anywhere else at all. Come on, now.

                            I have said over and over that I don't personally find the scene particularly offensive, and it doesn't seem like a lot of other people do either, but I certainly see the case for changing it. So far I haven't heard a strong case for keeping it as-is aside from nostalgia or "toughen up, buttercup!" Your argument seems to fall into the latter group, which unfortunately doesn't do anything for me because it seems unconcerned with viewing things from another person's perspective.
                            I personally haven’t heard a good reason for changing it. And no, you don’t have a right to “feel emotionally safe”. Because that’s what this is. It’s not about physical safety. It’s “my feelings are hurt” or “I don’t like reading or seeing that because it upsets me”. Yeah? Tough. In a university settimg YOU MIGHT BE UPSET. The purpose of an education is not to coddle. The world doesn’t have to walk on eggshells to worry about your insecurities. YOU are responsible for your own emotions and emotional reactions.

                            Yes, Buttercup, toughen up (and get real).

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                              If you find waterboarding offensive, the well scene should be offensive to you too, by your own logic. The well scene is torture by simulatimg drowning to get someone to talk.

                              I guess I’m 100% okay then with a scene of “human trafficking” then? And no, it’s not a “red herring” to bring up the other scenes. It’s the same concept. The PC police just want to pick and choose what’s supposedly “offensive” and inappropriate and what’s not. Poor little cartoon women, crying in their handkerchiefs. Seriously? No, the scene is not/was not bad or harmful. It was funny. Who wants the redhead? I do! And she can show me her larder side too! It’s unfortunate this twisted PC culture has gotten so out of hand, that an entire tounge in cheek cartoon ride about Pirates has to be censored by people who hold finger wagging, safe space, “it’s not right!” views. Views that are down right insipid and ridiculous. And yes, the auction scene being equated to “Human Trafficking” is pathetic and “taking things way to seriously”. As has already been stated, the Jungle Cruise will probably be the next target of the PC police.

                              Please, PC police, go home, lock your doors and windows, and stay in your safe spaces. The current and historical world is obviously too scary and offensive and upsetting for you to handle.
                              Once again, RE: the gun violence/swordfighting/well-drowning vs. human trafficking thing: it's called nuance. Read back over the thread to see what I have already said about this. Not interested in repeating it for a fifth time. The most critical argument I can make here is that all the guns and swordfighting are relevant to the story of the ride and advancing the narrative, and the auction scene is not. It could be removed, and the ride would not suffer from a story perspective in the slightest.

                              As for your characterization of it as funny: that's subjective. I liked the scene just fine, but never found it particularly funny. Objectively speaking, the scene is a portrayal of human trafficking, period. Again, is there some other term for selling people to other people when it's clear those being sold object to the whole thing? Because if there is, I'd like to hear it. Whether or not that is offensive is nothing more than a matter of opinion, so it's a waste of both of our time to try and argue that because you have different ideas of what is offensive and what isn't, but so far you're the first person I've seen outright deny that it was indeed human trafficking being portrayed.

                              At the end of the day, you wouldn't have caught me beating down the door at City Hall demanding changes to Pirates of the Caribbean. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out if someone who had been a victim of human trafficking at one point in their life had witnessed the scene for themselves and didn't appreciate the entire practice being taken as a joke, and overall, the scene is really not necessary to preserve the quality of the ride. I didn't feel that I personally needed the change, but I am ok with it, and I'm even looking forward to experiencing new sights and sounds at the park for the first time.

                              By the way, your assumption that I can't handle the historical world is wrong. I have spent the last four years of my life studying history at the undergrad level, and I do feel that we have a duty to come to grips with uncomfortable historical truths! However, I also feel that it's not the role of a theme park to try and tackle those issues. A theme park should strive to delight and entertain all, and this change seems to be in the spirit of that mission in my opinion.
                              Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                              Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                              So so hyphy.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                I personally haven’t heard a good reason for changing it. And no, you don’t have a right to “feel emotionally safe”. Because that’s what this is. It’s not about physical safety. It’s “my feelings are hurt” or “I don’t like reading or seeing that because it upsets me”. Yeah? Tough. In a university settimg YOU MIGHT BE UPSET. The purpose of an education is not to coddle. The world doesn’t have to walk on eggshells to worry about your insecurities. YOU are responsible for your own emotions and emotional reactions.

                                Yes, Buttercup, toughen up (and get real).
                                My friend, there is a difference between being exposed to facts or ideas that are uncomfortable for you and being exposed to bigotry, harassment, or hostility. Universities should foster diversity of thought (and contrary to the right-wing narrative, many of them do. Try going from a history class that talks about the history of human rights violations associated with capitalism to a business class, where it's rah-rah-rah for the free market all day every day, and you will see that academic freedom does exist), but doesn't have to tolerate the use of racial, homophobic, or religious slurs in its jurisdiction.

                                Anyways, this is somewhat of a tangent so I don't want to argue at length about this here, but yes, universities and most public institutions do have a right to make sure people are "emotionally safe," to a certain extent.
                                Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                                Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                                So so hyphy.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                                  My friend, there is a difference between being exposed to facts or ideas that are uncomfortable for you and being exposed to bigotry, harassment, or hostility. Universities should foster diversity of thought (and contrary to the right-wing narrative, many of them do. Try going from a history class that talks about the history of human rights violations associated with capitalism to a business class, where it's rah-rah-rah for the free market all day every day, and you will see that academic freedom does exist), but doesn't have to tolerate the use of racial, homophobic, or religious slurs in its jurisdiction.

                                  Anyways, this is somewhat of a tangent so I don't want to argue at length about this here, but yes, universities and most public institutions do have a right to make sure people are "emotionally safe," to a certain extent.
                                  I’m not talking about harrassment, I’m talking about “trigger warnings” in class and people who don’t want to read a text in class or view something because “it makes me uncomfortable”. Like the Auction scene. On a cartoorn pirate ride. Also, go back and read what I said. I said you do not have the right to not be offended or to not feel uncomfortable. You don’t. You are responsible for your own emotions and emotional responses. No one else.

                                  There’s no need for us to discuss further. The Auction was and is fine. Nothing wrong with it. No need to change it. Someone doesn’t like it? Tough. Don’t ride. And that person needs a reality check. I don’t believe in political correctness. I think your point of view is wrong. You don’t like mine. End of story.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                                    However, I also feel that it's not the role of a theme park to try and tackle those issues. A theme park should strive to delight and entertain all, and this change seems to be in the spirit of that mission in my opinion.
                                    Disney wasn’t tackling anything! It’s a tounge in cheek ride about cartoonish pirates!

                                    Good for you. I have a four undergraduate education from a major well known research university (right in the Walt Disney's back yard no less), and have done graduate work too. So what?

                                    Look, you’re young, you’re in college, and you’re very idealistic, and righteous. It’s normal. We’ll see if your views change in, say, about 30 years, when you’ve gotten more time living life under your belt, and have the perspective of time that you just do not have right now.
                                    Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 04-16-2018, 12:17 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                      Uh huh. That’s what pirates did. What do you expect?
                                      So, would you be ok if there was a depiction of American soldiers, on the frontier, slaughtering native Americans? That's most of what many of them did, after all.
                                      Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

                                        So, would you be ok if there was a depiction of American soldiers, on the frontier, slaughtering native Americans? That's most of what many of them did, after all.
                                        Good Lord.

                                        We had the burning settlers cabin didn’t we?

                                        Political Correctness must die.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                          Disney wasn’t tackling anything! It’s a tounge in cheek ride about cartoonish pirates!

                                          Good for you. I have a four undergraduate education from a major well known research university (right in the Walt Disney's back yard no less), and have done graduate work too. So what?

                                          Look, you’re young, you’re in college, and you’re very idealistic, and righteous. It’s normal. We’ll see if your views change in, say, about 30 years, when you’ve gotten more time living life under your belt, and have the perspective of time that you just do not have right now.
                                          Wow. That was juuuuust a bit condescending. I'm not young, in college or very idealistic, though I can be a bit righteous, but I agree that depicting human trafficking is inappropriate based on today's standards. I'm willing to bet that there are things that were considered socially acceptable, or even funny, around the time that PotC was made, which you would now consider distasteful in any context. Yes, the appearance and demeanor of the pirates is supposed to be disarming and comical, but that does not change the fact that one thing they are doing can be considered as representing a kind of behavior that our society has decided not to tolerate under any circumstances. Call that PC if you want.

                                          Let me ask you this: Why are some Disneyland fans getting SO upset about the fact that any change is being made to PotC, even though it's removing something that may offend some people? Would that still be the case if the old auction scene was going to be changed in some other way, or would the critics only be happy if it were left exactly as is (or reverted to an earlier version)?
                                          Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X