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Pirates of the Caribbean closing April 23 to remove the auction scene

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  • #81
    Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

    Wow. That was juuuuust a bit condescending. I'm not young, in college or very idealistic, though I can be a bit righteous, but I agree that depicting human trafficking is inappropriate based on today's standards. I'm willing to bet that there are things that were considered socially acceptable, or even funny, around the time that PotC was made, which you would now consider distasteful in any context. Yes, the appearance and demeanor of the pirates is supposed to be disarming and comical, but that does not change the fact that one thing they are doing can be considered as representing a kind of behavior that our society has decided not to tolerate under any circumstances. Call that PC if you want.

    Let me ask you this: Why are some Disneyland fans getting SO upset about the fact that any change is being made to PotC, even though it's removing something that may offend some people? Would that still be the case if the old auction scene was going to be changed in some other way, or would the critics only be happy if it were left exactly as is (or reverted to an earlier version)?
    It should have been left alone. No need to change. I really don’t think the majority of people are or were offensed by it. GENERATIONS of Americans have been through that attraction, and it damaged none of us. I highly doubt it. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. No one has the right to not be offended. You are responsible for your emotions and emotional responses. I think anyone who would claim to be offended really has too much time on their hands.

    Oh man, now about that POTC waterboarding scene....

    P.S. These pirates didn’t live in 2018.

    Take a wench for a bride! Who wants the redhead?! I do! I wants the redhead!

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

      It should have been left alone. No need to change. I really don’t think the majority of people are or were offensed by it. GENERATIONS of Americans have been through that attraction, and it damaged none of us. I highly doubt it. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. No one has the right to not be offended. You are responsible for your emotions and emotional responses. I think anyone who would claim to be offended really has too much time on their hands.

      Oh man, now about that POTC waterboarding scene....

      P.S. These pirates didn’t live in 2018.

      Take a wench for a bride! Who wants the redhead?! I do! I wants the redhead!
      Correct. Everybody should accept that they are going to be offended by things, sometimes. But one would hope that it wouldn't be by something they experience in a Disneyland attraction. Also, no one has the right to expect that everything they like will always stay the same just because they want it to. You are responsible for you emotions and emotional responses. You argue both that these pirates are supposed to be cartoonish and not realistic, but when something about them will be changed, you get upset because that's what pirates did.
      Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

        Correct. Everybody should accept that they are going to be offended by things, sometimes. But one would hope that it wouldn't be by something they experience in a Disneyland attraction. Also, no one has the right to expect that everything they like will always stay the same just because they want it to. You are responsible for you emotions and emotional responses. You argue both that these pirates are supposed to be cartoonish and not realistic, but when something about them will be changed, you get upset because that's what pirates did.
        I get upset because that’s what pirates did? What? I fully support the bride auction! And no, there is nothing and there never has been anything offensive in Pirates. Anyone who thinks so has other problems. It’s utterly ludicrous. Unbelievable. Where did this warped PC culture come from?

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

          Now, how about them changes to POTC?
          How about them? They're still happening, whether you personally "get it" or not.
          Women, they make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

            I get upset because that’s what pirates did? What? I fully support the bride auction! And no, there is nothing and there never has been anything offensive in Pirates. Anyone who thinks so has other problems. It’s utterly ludicrous. Unbelievable. Where did this warped PC culture come from?
            Well, even Walt Disney questioned if the scene went too far back in the 1960's...so if the creators themselves think it might be too much, and that was over 50 years ago, then maybe it isn't so ludicrous.
            Women, they make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

              Disney wasn’t tackling anything! It’s a tounge in cheek ride about cartoonish pirates!

              Good for you. I have a four undergraduate education from a major well known research university (right in the Walt Disney's back yard no less), and have done graduate work too. So what?

              Look, you’re young, you’re in college, and you’re very idealistic, and righteous. It’s normal. We’ll see if your views change in, say, about 30 years, when you’ve gotten more time living life under your belt, and have the perspective of time that you just do not have right now.
              You misunderstand me, my friend. I'm not trying to claim my education in history makes me an authority. Simply that, yes, I have a more-than-cursory understanding of the subject, and am aware that it is laden with uncomfortable and unpleasant truths. The point I'm trying to make is that just because people question whether or not a theme park ride needs to have a scene portraying human trafficking doesn't mean they're "too soft" or too ignorant to handle the realities of the historical world, or even the modern world. That's an oversimplification, to say the very least.

              As for whether or not they're "tackling" it.... fine, fair enough. I guess the purpose of the ride is not to educate, or provide any sort of commentary or historically accurate story (although, believe it or not, there are people who have argued that the same ride that features a singing dog and a skeleton drinking a never-ending bottle of rum has an obligation to be historically accurate and should therefore keep the original scene). So in that case, why even address the human trafficking angle?

              Concerning your reply to my other post: I'm just trying to get you to consider this from another person's perspective here. If you don't want to, that's your deal. Just try to bear in mind that your tastes are not the same as everyone else's.
              Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
              Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
              So so hyphy.

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                You misunderstand me, my friend. I'm not trying to claim my education in history makes me an authority. Simply that, yes, I have a more-than-cursory understanding of the subject, and am aware that it is laden with uncomfortable and unpleasant truths. The point I'm trying to make is that just because people question whether or not a theme park ride needs to have a scene portraying human trafficking doesn't mean they're "too soft" or too ignorant to handle the realities of the historical world, or even the modern world. That's an oversimplification, to say the very least.

                As for whether or not they're "tackling" it.... fine, fair enough. I guess the purpose of the ride is not to educate, or provide any sort of commentary or historically accurate story (although, believe it or not, there are people who have argued that the same ride that features a singing dog and a skeleton drinking a never-ending bottle of rum has an obligation to be historically accurate and should therefore keep the original scene). So in that case, why even address the human trafficking angle?

                Concerning your reply to my other post: I'm just trying to get you to consider this from another person's perspective here. If you don't want to, that's your deal. Just try to bear in mind that your tastes are not the same as everyone else's.
                Comparing the Auction Scene in POTC, a cartooish, tounge in cheek pirate attraction, to present day human trafficking is absurd. A completely idiotic idea by people who have far too much time in their hands. The scene is not wrong, it’s not bad, and anyone who might be upset by it has bigger (mental) problems. And if that upsets them, they better watch out in life outside of Disneyland. The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous.

                You were hurt by it? Tough. It upset you? Tough. It offended you? Too bad! Should not have ridden it again!

                Go home and see your psychotherapist!

                Those are my thoughts on the matter, and they will never change.
                Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 04-17-2018, 09:31 AM.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Professortango View Post

                  How about them? They're still happening, whether you personally "get it" or not.
                  Oh I get them. They’re being done in the name of PC Culture Bull$#!¥.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                    Comparing the Auction Scene in POTC, a cartooish, tounge in cheek pirate attraction, to present day human trafficking is absurd. A completely idiotic idea by people who have far too much time in their hands. The scene is not wrong, it’s not bad, and anyone who might be upset by it has bigger (mental) problems. And if that upsets them, they better watch out in life outside of Disneyland. The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous.

                    You’re hurt by it? Tough. Upsets you? Tough. Offends you? Too bad! Stay home!

                    Those are my thoughts on the matter, and they will never change.
                    Well, that's too bad, and I suppose you were right earlier that it's a waste of our time to debate this if that's what your stance is. It's not absurd at all to compare it to human trafficking, and I drew the connection after riding it the first time I was old enough to be aware of what prostitution was, which was about age 13. To think that any adult first-time rider with no nostalgic or emotional attachment to the ride wouldn't also make the connection is what I find truly absurd. I would bet you that nearly 100% of them have.

                    But regardless, you're convinced that there is no connection whatsoever, and that those who are ok with the change or would even prefer it to the original are big ol' wimps who shouldn't even be in the park. I guess that's your deal and you'd rather skip one of the greatest theme park attractions in history because it's "too PC" for you. Just be aware that that's your choice and nobody else's.
                    Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                    Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                    So so hyphy.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                      Well, that's too bad, and I suppose you were right earlier that it's a waste of our time to debate this if that's what your stance is. It's not absurd at all to compare it to human trafficking, and I drew the connection after riding it the first time I was old enough to be aware of what prostitution was, which was about age 13. To think that any adult first-time rider with no nostalgic or emotional attachment to the ride wouldn't also make the connection is what I find truly absurd. I would bet you that nearly 100% of them have.

                      But regardless, you're convinced that there is no connection whatsoever, and that those who are ok with the change or would even prefer it to the original are big ol' wimps who shouldn't even be in the park. I guess that's your deal and you'd rather skip one of the greatest theme park attractions in history because it's "too PC" for you. Just be aware that that's your choice and nobody else's.

                      Oh I won’t skip it. Yup. You got it! They were being sold to be wives of Pirstes, or, if you’re the PC type, “sex slaves”, or “prostitutes”. I am 100% okay with that scene being in the attraction.

                      Are we 100% clear now?

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post


                        Oh I won’t skip it. Yup. You got it! They were being sold to be wives of Pirstes, or, if you’re the PC type, “sex slaves”, or “prostitutes”. I am 100% okay with that scene being in the attraction.

                        Are we 100% clear now?
                        I mean, being sold as a "bride" is exactly the same thing as being sold as a "sex slave" because it's their lack of consent or control over the situation that makes the whole thing what it is, but sure, I suppose we're clear now. Still doesn't quite explain your hostility towards people who support the change but that's fine.
                        Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                        Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                        So so hyphy.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Professortango View Post

                          Well, even Walt Disney questioned if the scene went too far back in the 1960's...so if the creators themselves think it might be too much, and that was over 50 years ago, then maybe it isn't so ludicrous.
                          You’re right. According to Jason Surrell’s book about the attraction, and an article in E-Ticket magazine, Walt did *initially* express doubt about the Auction scene. But after Marc Davis and X Atencio added humor to the scene (and apparently the sensitive PC types today have no sense of humor), Walt whole heartedly approved it, after being pushed through a mock up of the scene on a “boat” with wheels underneath in a studio (Page 6).

                          X Atencio is quoted as saying (Page 32 of the Surrell book):

                          ”....the way the girls were done, it’s not an offensive scene at all, but probably could have been if it wasn’t handled in an interesting way.”

                          So creators themselves did NOT find it offensive!
                          Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 04-17-2018, 10:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                            I mean, being sold as a "bride" is exactly the same thing as being sold as a "sex slave" because it's their lack of consent or control over the situation that makes the whole thing what it is, but sure, I suppose we're clear now. Still doesn't quite explain your hostility towards people who support the change but that's fine.
                            Well, because I think their ideas are insipid and ridiculous, and they should find better things they do with their time. I am also 100% anti PC. I think it’s pathetic.

                            Also, see my post below yours about what the creators themselves thought about the scene. Interestingly, it was the first scene worked on. Marc Davis and X Atencio worked on it, and neither they or Walt Disney himself found it offensive, back when they did it, or later in life (page 6 and 32 of Jason Surrell book on POTC).
                            Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 04-17-2018, 10:12 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                              Well, because I think their ideas are insipid and ridiculous, and they should find better things they do with their time. I am also 100% anti PC. I think it’s pathetic.

                              Also, see my post above yours about what the creators themselves thought about the scene. Interestngly, it was the first scene worked on. Marc Davis and X Antencio worked on it, and neither they or Walt Disney himself found it offensive, back when they did it, or later in life (see the Jason Surrell book on POTC).
                              Bear in mind that no one was ever picketing outside Disneyland demanding them to change the scene. It was a choice they made of their own volition, and many people, myself included, simply responded positively and saw it as a proactive way of changing with ever-evolving tastes. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say "they should find better things to do with their time." This wasn't the result of major backlash. It was a choice Disneyland made to be able to live in 2018 and beyond. Also, I certainly hope you don't find my ideas insipid and ridiculous.

                              The creators are talented and brilliant, obviously, but they are also old men and products of a different era. It's fine that they didn't find it offensive and I think they have interesting things to say about the scene, but they shouldn't be used as a barometer for consumer tastes in 2018. It seems that in their quote they even acknowledge the possibility that the scene could be considered offensive by some.
                              Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                              Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                              So so hyphy.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by LetsGoDubs View Post

                                Bear in mind that no one was ever picketing outside Disneyland demanding them to change the scene. It was a choice they made of their own volition, and many people, myself included, simply responded positively and saw it as a proactive way of changing with ever-evolving tastes. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say "they should find better things to do with their time." This wasn't the result of major backlash. It was a choice Disneyland made to be able to live in 2018 and beyond. Also, I certainly hope you don't find my ideas insipid and ridiculous.

                                The creators are talented and brilliant, obviously, but they are also old men and products of a different era. It's fine that they didn't find it offensive and I think they have interesting things to say about the scene, but they shouldn't be used as a barometer for consumer tastes in 2018. It seems that in their quote they even acknowledge the possibility that the scene could be considered offensive by some.
                                You just said this wasn’t about people picketing, and there was no backlash, so what’s this about “evolving tastes” or “consumer tastes in 2018”? I think there is a very shrill, minority of people who think this way. And, yes, since you asked, I do indeed find the *ideas* you have stated “insipid and ridiculous”. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be arguing this with you.
                                Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 04-17-2018, 10:43 AM.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                  Oh I get them. They’re being done in the name of PC Culture Bull$#!¥.
                                  When a joke stops resonating, you change the joke. Happens to the best of comedies. Even Shakespeare has plenty of jokes which no longer play to a modern audience. If this really triggers you so much to create an account for the sole purpose of complaining about it, I might avoid the attraction or even the park. Disney has always strived to remain safe and friendly for the whole family, so you're likely to get triggered many more times.
                                  Women, they make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                    You’re right. According to Jason Surrell’s book about the attraction, and an article in E-Ticket magazine, Walt did *initially* express doubt about the Auction scene. But after Marc Davis and X Atencio added humor to the scene (and apparently the sensitive PC types today have no sense of humor), Walt whole heartedly approved it, after being pushed through a mock up of the scene on a “boat” with wheels underneath in a studio (Page 6).

                                    X Atencio is quoted as saying (Page 32 of the Surrell book):

                                    ”....the way the girls were done, it’s not an offensive scene at all, but probably could have been if it wasn’t handled in an interesting way.”

                                    So creators themselves did NOT find it offensive!
                                    The creators saw the offensive nature of the scene and tried to mask it with comedy. That worked for almost half a century. But societies change. I'm sure if they built Splash Mountain in 1955 it would have had a tar baby and not a bee hive. Doesn't mean that minstrel comedy should be preserved at a theme park selling to modern day guests. Museums document how societies were, theme parks sell to how societies are currently. If the joke no longer works in a modern context, the joke must go.
                                    Women, they make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Professortango View Post

                                      When a joke stops resonating, you change the joke. Happens to the best of comedies. Even Shakespeare has plenty of jokes which no longer play to a modern audience. If this really triggers you so much to create an account for the sole purpose of complaining about it, I might avoid the attraction or even the park. Disney has always strived to remain safe and friendly for the whole family, so you're likely to get triggered many more times.
                                      The joke never stopped resonating. And actually, I didn’t create the account to complain about this. I DID on the other hand, create the account to add my voice to a poll in the DLP forum about the utterly stupid change of name for the POTC restaurant from “Blue Lagoon” to “Captain Jack’s”.

                                      Funny you bring up “triggering”, because that’s the argument some have used about these “victims of human trafficking” who would be so hurt by the Auction scene. Best they just avoid it, huh?

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by Professortango View Post

                                        The creators saw the offensive nature of the scene and tried to mask it with comedy. That worked for almost half a century. But societies change. I'm sure if they built Splash Mountain in 1955 it would have had a tar baby and not a bee hive. Doesn't mean that minstrel comedy should be preserved at a theme park selling to modern day guests. Museums document how societies were, theme parks sell to how societies are currently. If the joke no longer works in a modern context, the joke must go.
                                        Who said the joke doesn’t work? Where’s the evidence of a major backlash or a ton of complaints?

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                                          You just said this wasn’t about people picketing, and there was no backlash, so what’s this about “evolving tastes” or “consumer tastes in 2018”? I think there is a very shrill, minority of people who think this way. And, yes, since you asked, I do indeed find the *ideas* you have stated “insipid and ridiculous”. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be arguing this with you.
                                          Joking about selling women against their will (and then making a fat joke about one of them) won't have much staying power going forward, and doesn't have the same comedic appeal that it used to. So yeah, people's changing tastes and Disney's awareness of them are indeed factors. Thanks for telling me my ideas are insipid and ridiculous despite several pages of what I feel are decent explanations of why the scene is no longer necessary. While the honesty is appreciated, I have had many an argument here on MiceChat and can honestly say I have yet to find anyone that I've disagreed with to have "insipid and ridiculous" ideas. It's odd that you spent so much time harping on colleges for supposedly suppressing diversity of thought but at the same time seem to think I'm objectively less intelligent than you because we disagree.

                                          EDIT: I know that you emphasized "ideas" to make your comment seem less personal, and I do appreciate that. However, I don't think it's really very easy to separate a person from their ideas. Anyways, moving on, I agree with ProfessorTango that the joke feels odd and out of place to me at times, and could reasonably be updated without adversely affecting the ride.
                                          Warriors, Giants, Sharks, Texans fan from the Bay Area.
                                          Annual visitor to Disneyland ('99, '04-08, '11-present)
                                          So so hyphy.

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