Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

[sir clinksalot]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

When your dealing with complicated machinery, accidents are going to happen. They are VERY rare though. If they weren't, it wouldn't make national news.

[Eagleman]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

When your dealing with complicated machinery, accidents are going to happen. They are VERY rare though. If they weren't, it wouldn't make national news.

I sure you right?

But I was sure that Channel 7 ,ABC , Disney owned, was going be there!

[sarki7]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

When your dealing with complicated machinery, accidents are going to happen. They are VERY rare though.

Boy, that's not a very good excuse or justification for allowing sub par design and engineering. The issues may be rare in the sense that you're unlikely to get injured on any ride. I'm more concerned that you're significantly more likely to get injured on an Intamin ride. And we're talking freefalls, water rides, coasters. Relative to most every other manufactures, whose accidents truly are rare - Intamin has incidents like this pretty much ever year.

I, for one, don't think chalking that fact up to "accidents happen" is really appropriate.

[Kritter]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

when your dealing with complicated machinery, accidents are going to happen. They are very rare though. If they weren't, it wouldn't make national news.

agreed

[Darkbeer]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

But I was sure that Channel 7 ,ABC , Disney owned, was going be there!

As someone who has recently worked with KABC, channel 7 News department, they truly try to be fair and not JUST focus on good news for Disney or bad news for other Theme/Amusement parks.

We all tried to make sure that all SoCal Theme Parks were treated fairly and about the same.

Interesting to note, we ended up shooting the segment at Knott's because they had no problem with us coming on property and discussing multiple companies and some of their current deals.

Of course, the Disneyland PR folks said no to the segment on property if it had anything to do with other parks. (And since I was the "expert", it might have been a secondary issue). Of course, Disney has that right, but IMHO, it is short sighted, as we did mention the current Disney deal, and the entire segment was "positive" in regards to all parks, as it was just talking about the best way to get a great deal if you wanted to visit a park.

Of course, the lawyers do make the KABC staff say things like "We are part of the Walt Disney Corporation" at the end of stories that mainly feature Disneyland or other segments of the Walt Disney Company.

[Eagleman]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

As someone who has recently worked with KABC, channel 7 News department, they truly try to be fair and not JUST focus on good news for Disney or bad news for other Theme/Amusement parks.

We all tried to make sure that all SoCal Theme Parks were treated fairly and about the same.

Interesting to note, we ended up shooting the segment at Knott's because they had no problem with us coming on property and discussing multiple companies and some of their current deals.

Of course, the Disneyland PR folks said no to the segment on property if it had anything to do with other parks. (And since I was the "expert", it might have been a secondary issue). Of course, Disney has that right, but IMHO, it is short sighted, as we did mention the current Disney deal, and the entire segment was "positive" in regards to all parks, as it was just talking about the best way to get a great deal if you wanted to visit a park.

Of course, the lawyers do make the KABC staff say things like "We are part of the Walt Disney Corporation" at the end of stories that mainly feature Disneyland or other segments of the Walt Disney Company.

Darkbeer
YOU are so right!
Iam sorry about the ABC-Disney and was not " fair " the way I put that!
That wrong of me....
Except I knew they was going to be there to report it and they was....
as other Stations was also.....
Again every one I'am sorry!

[sir clinksalot]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

Boy, that's not a very good excuse or justification for allowing sub par design and engineering. The issues may be rare in the sense that you're unlikely to get injured on any ride. I'm more concerned that you're significantly more likely to get injured on an Intamin ride. And we're talking freefalls, water rides, coasters. Relative to most every other manufactures, whose accidents truly are rare - Intamin has incidents like this pretty much ever year.

I, for one, don't think chalking that fact up to "accidents happen" is really appropriate.

This is where you start losing me.

7 years of no issues on this ride and it happens once and it's a "design flaw"??? Yes, it's happened on other coasters. But do you know how many Intamin Rocket Coasters there are now? According to RCDB it's 13. The only ones I recall there being any issues on were TTD and Kingda Ka. Any wonder as they were the tallest/fastest at the time?

The smaller ones like Storm Runner (my personal favorite coaster period) have had no issues from what I recall. Correct me if I'm wrong please?

So in 7 years of this particular style of coasters life (Xcelerator was the first) and 12 additional rides being built there have been let's say ... 5-10 "incidents". I don't even think it's that many, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In the case of Xcelerator, from what I can tell, it's the only one that can conceivably operate 365 days a year. Although, as we all know, it does go through yearly refurb. So let's say for each of these coasters there is probably 200 days per year (April-October for the ones in the Northern Hemisphere) where they are in operation.

Xcelerator 7 years - 1400 days
TTD 6 years - 1200 days
Storm Runner 5 years - 1000 days
Rita/Kanonen/Kingda Ka - 4 years - 800 days (each)
Skycar/Superman Escape - 3 1/2 years - 700 days (each)
Stealth/Speed Monster/Zaturn - 3 years - 600 days (each)
Desert Race/Furios Baco - 2 years - 400 days (each)

So for those 13 rides, your talking (roughly) 10,000 TOTAL days of operation.

Let's say the average day the ride is open 10 hours and the ride is run 15 times per hour (this is assuming all ops are as bad as Knott's ) for an average daily run cycle of 150 times per day.

150 times per day x 10,000 days = 1.5 million rides for all coasters (roughly)

And your talking 5-10 incidents.

I'd take that record any day of the week.

*Disclaimer* - I'm not a scientist or mathematician and I'm tired, so if that's incorrect on my math please somebody let me know.

[JesterMn]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

^Hear, hear. I was a math major, and while the exact figures are only estimates, the intent is accurate.

And while this particular accident is an exception, let's remember that the majority of ride accidents are typically rider-caused (trying to stand up, undoing seat belts, etc.) Which is what makes this case particularly rare.

More people have died in ride related incidents at Disneyland including the Peoplemover, Matterhorn, America Sings, drowning in Rivers of America, Monorail (people trying to jump the track and being struck), BTMRR, and Columbia (souce: snopes.com) than at Knott's (I believe just Perilous Plunge). And Knott's has been around a whole lot longer. So you can argue overall, Knott's has a much better safely record.

[sarki7]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

You're making the mistake of focusing on the absolute number of accidents, not the relative comparison to everyone else in the industry who manages to put forth their designs without incident.

Yes, overall the chances of being injured on a ride are extremely low. Yes, usually the rider did something wrong, but I'm purely talking about mechanical/engineering failures. I'm also not talking about the absolute odds. I'm talking about comparing Intamin to Chance, B&M, Arrow, Vekoma, etc., etc. - pretty much any other major ride manufacturer. While you include on rides with similar launch systems that may not have had this exact incident, you ignore the freefall rides, water rides, and other coaster types that have had repeated accidents. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that the total number of Intamin's incidents over the past 10 years is more than everyone else combined. Accidents do happen, but at an undeniably higher rate on Intamin attractions.

For example, guess who manufactured the raft ride that capsized at Walibi World earlier this week. I'm just glad it wasn't a repeat of the events at SFOT a few years back. It goes WAY beyond this single design, and it goes way beyond "rider error" and "accidents happen"

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they're going to get injured on a ride. I'm trying to explain how time and time again, when there is an incident, odds are Intamin is involved. THAT is what points to some serious engineering shortcomings.

[tamasurvivor]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

This is horrible... I was looking forward to riding Xcelerator at the Haunt meet... Provided that all mazes were completed first... LOL! But oh well I guess I will have to settle with Silver Bullet

Again... Provided that all mazes are completed first!

[disneyfan07]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

in regards to this situation, are we then to ask the cast member running the ride if the ride is currently safe?

[Lane]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

Man.. that Haunt Clown in the sky pulled of one awesome prank.. i thank you Haunt God for closing xcelerator a day before us clowns start haunt.

In all seriousness, Its a good think nobody got hurt. The rides system handled the situation safely and effectively besides the debris hitting the people in the face...which didnt hurt them. But, i am sooo glad that xcelerator is closed just in time for haunt. Hopefully it says closed until its over.

[sarki7]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

disneyfan07 has since edited the post, but this is a response to the general question of, who gets blamed, the manufacturer or the ride supplier:

That's a good question, and not easily determined. Usually, it's whoever has the best lawyers. Take the current series of lawsuits regarding the accident at SFKK. The family sued Six Flags, Six Flags sued Intamin, as well as a series of parts manufacturers. It's quite complicated to determine fault when it's likely not 100% clear technically.

The reason I focus on Intamin is because across all these incidents, at some many different parks owned by so many different companies, maintained by so many different crews, built with so many different parts from so many different suppliers, look who is the common denominator.

It's Intamin always 100% to blame? No, of course not. But there is never a shortage of blame to go around, and Intamin has shown very little that would suggest that they learn from their mistakes.

In all seriousness, Its a good think nobody got hurt. The rides system handled the situation safely and effectively besides the debris hitting the people in the face...which didnt hurt them.

Wow, I would be very careful about making assessments like that, especially when they contradict the news reports suggesting the rider or riders were, in fact, injured: http://www.examiner.com/x-2233-LA-Am...res-two-guests

Besides, am I really the only one here who thinks that asserting The ride was perfectly safe besides the part where two people were injured is absolutely ridiculous?

[Darkbeer]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knott's Berry Farm

Besides, am I really the only one here who thinks that asserting The ride was perfectly safe besides the part where two people were injured is absolutely ridiculous?

In a way, yes. Any mechanical ride will have a possibility of injuring guests. Heck, Disney had to make changes to the Storybook Canal Boats due to someone getting injured when approaching the dock.

Or when the Keel Boat capsized on the Rivers of America and caused problems....

Or when a kid got run over by the Autopia....

Or losing a finger while playing on Tom Sawyer Island and its rifles...

Or riding Alice in Wonderland....

Or the famous Roger Rabbit CarToon Spin incident that required major changes...

Injury Accidents at Disneyland

Nothing is PERFECT, and to try and make a BIG deal out of this MINOR incident is overkill, and seems like you are on an agenda!

As I said earlier, Lift Cables/Chains break on a regular basis... Heck, look at Aircraft carriers... they deal with aircraft worth Millions each, and do their best to replace the cables on a regular basis, usually around the 80% expected fail rate. But you can only take an "average" life on things like cable and do your best. Alas, they do break on occasion prior to the expected life, even with a lot of quality control testing.....

Is your car "perfectly safe"... The answer is NO!. Nor is the bus, train, plane or any other sort of moving vehicle.

On the other hand, amusement rides, including Roller Coasters have a much better safety record than the other types of moving vehicles!

[Lane]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

umm..... out of the entire train 2 people claimed they were "injured". One due to "back problems" and the other... nothing. No serious injuries.. nothing to complain about.

[sarki7]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but failure is not acceptable. One accident is too many, and one accident certainly doesn't make another accident, "OK". There is no questioning the fact, this ride malfunctioned. I'm glad no one got seriously hurt, but how this lucky outcome means we don't need to treat this as an unacceptable and potentially much more dangerous incident is beyond me.

You keep missing my point. Yes, accidents happen. Yes, no system is 100% failsafe. Yes, amusement rides are one of the safest mechanical systems. But all this doesn't erase the undeniable pattern and history.

And beyond generally resenting the notion of having an agenda, I will gladly state that I LOVE Intamin rides, especially their coasters. Just check out the place in my top ten if you don't believe me. My concern is the tradeoffs they make, a willingness to compromise both safety and reliability in favor of novelty and thrill.

I have a hard time ignoring the fact that B&M, Vekoma, Arrow, etc., etc all almost never experience mechanical failures resulting in injuries. Maybe you're willing to chalk the overwhelmingly disproportionate accident rate to chance. I'm not.

[ducksman]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

I am dumbfounded as to why everyone is defending Intamin. Seriously. Look at how many accidents happen on Intamin rides. And we're not talking about guest or operator misbehavior like the ones listed by Darkbeer. We are talking about cables breaking, restraints coming loose, boats capsizing, structural failures, and other mechanical problems that are not caused at all by guests.

When was the last time you heard of a B&M ride breaking and injuring someone seriously? What about an Arrow coaster? I'm sure both of these have had their incidents, but there is no way it has been as common as Intamin.

You guys can sit there and say that "accidents will happen" all you want, but if I were a theme park operator, I would definitely think twice before buying an Intamin ride.

[Darkbeer]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

This story, IMHO is NOT the manufacture, but the fact a cable broke.

It happens way too often in way too many incidents. I mentioned Aircraft Carriers, which use cables to stop planes worth many millions of dollars to stop on the deck. Alas, things happen on a regular basis, some due to pilots missing the cables with their hooks, but there have been multiple times that a plane hooked on and then the cable broke.

Things are NOT perfect, and any type of lift cable/chain will fail. They try and replace them prior to the "expected" breaking point, but they do break prior to the expected life on occasion.

If you want to close down every Roller Coaster that has a lift chain/cable break during taking a train up the hill, most coasters would be closed!

That is why they have safety chain dogs (aka ratchets) on all chain lift coasters. That "click, click, click" is designed to make sure the train doesn't go backwards if the chain breaks.

For "launch" coasters that use a cable, they are designed to have a true launch over the lift hill, or a "Short Shot" which will have the train come backwards and special breaks will stop the train. (All well designed safety measures). EVERY Coaster designer company knows that nothing is perfect and has measures in place to make sure nothing really bad happens if the lift mechanism fails. And in the case, as most every other case, the system worked just as designed.

[ducksman]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

Darkbeer-

The difference is when the chain or cable on most roller coasters and drop towers break nobody gets injured. When they break on an Intamin ride people lose their feet, fall out of their vehicles or get lacerations.

When was the last time you heard of someone getting injured when the cable broke on an S&S drop tower? What about a Schwarzkopf shuttle loop, and those have been in operation much longer than Intamin's rocket coasters.

It seems to me the designer of these rides is not taking into account the affect a "normal" malfunction would have on riders.

[sarki7]

Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

That "click, click, click" is designed to make sure the train doesn't go backwards if the chain breaks.

Aside from being almost patronizing, I'm not sure how your analogy applies. Yes, the anti-rollback dawgs ensure a train doesn't fall backwards. They are a fail-safe that guarantees that IF there is a wear-related break in the chain, riders will be safe. If anything, that proves my point, i.e., where is this sort of fail-safe for Intamin's launched coasters? Plainly, there's clear lack of a safety mechanism in the system to account for this type of failure.

Anton Schwarzkopf pioneered much of the coaster launch technology, and, as far as I know - didn't have any such issues. He managed to figure out a way to safety and consistently account for "normal wear and tear". Where's Intamin's excuse? Their rides go faster and are taller? Well, that just goes back to the whole "prioritizing novelty over safety and reliability" thing.

Again, were this an isolated incident, I'd be right there with you saying "accidents happen". But too many different kinds of Intamin rides have malfunctioned and injured people for too many different mechanical reasons for me to be comfortable chalking this all up to chance and randomness.