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  • #81
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    I glad someone is enjoying themselves.

    Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
    Your list is so flawed to start with. You lump mechanical and design failures together as if they are equals. You say it's 'just a sample' yet use it to draw definitive conclusions from what is included or not, and then you put accidents in there that aren't even investigated yet. That is what you call flawed method AND data. Any conclusions drawn from it are worthless.
    Again, saying it is flawed doesn't make it flawed. You carry on as though it's not worth wasting your time to even address it directly, and then you proceed to spend a significant amount of time elsewhere on this increasingly pointless discussion.

    I have no concerns with that list - as I have said from the start, I was as inclusive of Intamin accidents as I am of everyone else's accidents. I am happy to admit it is not complete, nor is each accident of the same scale and scope. The general thrust, however, remains.

    And while you clearly take issue with my conclusions, let's not pretend this is any sort of legal proceeding. The information I have been discussing, while not all cataloged and marked as exhibits A, B, and C - is there for anyone to see, and for them to form whatever opinions they like. So unless there is contrary information that I haven't come across or considered (which there certainly maybe), I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

    The expectation of safety is WHY I hold each manufacturer to such high (again, you may call unrealistic, I call principled) standards. Unfortunately I'm not IN the shop with Intamin engineers to see exactly what they're doing (or doing wrong). Incident counts, as an outside consumer, is really all we have to go on to raise red flags. Is this 100% foolproof in measuring design failures? No, but until an engineer or inspector comes forward (and violates some NDA) and gives us unfettered access, we only have the information we have. And in the end, due to such a disproportionate number of accidents, there is nothing invalid about raising this as a concern.

    Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
    I don't think it's prudent to try to make such claims.
    I guess your overwhelming opinion is that I lack prudence. Ok, great, noted. I'll keep that in mind. Unless there is anything else, I see little point in continuing this.

    (If you'd like more information on HF/E field, visit Human Factors and Ergonomics Society: About HFES)
    www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

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    • #82
      Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

      Is this discussion finished yet, because soon it's going to shoot into personal attacks.

      This is the first time the ride has EVER experienced an accident. It happens the kid and dad are alright and the state is investigating the accident.

      Comment


      • #83
        Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

        Two weeks before this incident Xcelerator had problems with a similar issue. The ride shot up the track, but couldn't make it all the way up and returned to the station. I'm assuming there was no damage done since everyone went off just fine and the ride continued operating after that incident.

        Personally I've been on it once, didn't really like it ... and after these two incidents that I'm aware of I won't be riding it again.

        Comment


        • #84
          Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

          Originally posted by TikiRoomLiz View Post
          Two weeks before this incident Xcelerator had problems with a similar issue. The ride shot up the track, but couldn't make it all the way up and returned to the station. I'm assuming there was no damage done since everyone went off just fine and the ride continued operating after that incident.
          The "Short shot" happens on a regular basis, the change in Temperature during the day and/or the winds can require an increase of launch speed to get over the Top Hat.

          The ride's design is pretty simple, either go over the Top Hat, and then gravity will take the car all the way to the end to the break run, or it doesn't go over the Top Hat and the cars goes backwards and returns to the station. There is a set of brakes at the beginning of the ride that are pulled down for a launch and then immediately return to the main position. (If all power failed, then the brakes will be in the up position to stop the train.)
          Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

          Comment


          • #85
            Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

            Originally posted by TikiRoomLiz View Post
            Personally I've been on it once, didn't really like it ... and after these two incidents that I'm aware of I won't be riding it again.
            That's fine if you don't personally like it, but two incidents out of the thousands it's given, if not more, is not a big deal, from a statistical point of view. You have a greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident, yet you still drive, don't you?
            Does anyone even bother with signatures anymore?

            Comment


            • #86
              Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

              I've gotten pretty accustomed to seeing that "stat" thrown about somewhat misleadingly. Per passenger hour, roller coasters are one of the LEAST safe forms of "transportation". (i.e., the chances for injury in a car are obviously higher, but think how much more cumulative time society spends on the road than on coasters). I'm not saying it's not true or not worthwhile to consider, my only point is, the statistical view ("two incidents out of the thousands") isn't always the best way to say what is and isn't safe in an absolute sense.

              Yes, these rides are overwhelmingly safe, but that doesn't change the fact that this failure is something strikingly similar to several we've seen before, and that may be cause for concern.
              www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

              Comment


              • #87
                Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                Originally posted by JesterMn View Post
                That's fine if you don't personally like it, but two incidents out of the thousands it's given, if not more, is not a big deal, from a statistical point of view. You have a greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident, yet you still drive, don't you?
                I live in Los Angeles ... of course I drive! LOL! Really though, I don't want to make it seem that these two incidents are what is really stopping me from riding it. I just don't care for it, of course if I'm with my boyfriend and he wants to ride it ... I'll end up going.

                Although it makes me miss the soap box racers that were in the area ... now THAT was a fun ride!

                Comment


                • #88
                  Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                  Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
                  Yes, these rides are overwhelmingly safe, but that doesn't change the fact that this failure is something strikingly similar to several we've seen before, and that may be cause for concern.
                  This is the FIRST time it has happened to this coaster since its opening in 2002! You make it seem like it has happened to this coaster over and over again.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                    Originally posted by Darkbeer View Post
                    The "Short shot" happens on a regular basis, the change in Temperature during the day and/or the winds can require an increase of launch speed to get over the Top Hat.

                    The ride's design is pretty simple, either go over the Top Hat, and then gravity will take the car all the way to the end to the break run, or it doesn't go over the Top Hat and the cars goes backwards and returns to the station. There is a set of brakes at the beginning of the ride that are pulled down for a launch and then immediately return to the main position. (If all power failed, then the brakes will be in the up position to stop the train.)
                    Can the third scenario occur on Xcelerator, which is where the train gets stuck on top of the Top Hat? I have seen video of this for Top Thrill Dragster.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                      Originally posted by DifrntDrmr View Post
                      Can the third scenario occur on Xcelerator, which is where the train gets stuck on top of the Top Hat? I have seen video of this for Top Thrill Dragster.
                      If you look at the top of Top Thrill Dragster, you will notice they have an elevator lift and breaks at the top for that problem (which I believe has happened once). The same thing is not there on Xcelerator. When happened the maintenance crew rode up the elevator and gave the train a push and sent it down the hill.

                      There are MANY other rides that have similar mechanisms such as Vekoma Boomerangs (like at Knott's), etc. So it's not just an Intamin issue.

                      Again, the chances of this happening are VERY rare.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                        Originally posted by Kritter View Post
                        This is the FIRST time it has happened to this coaster since its opening in 2002! You make it seem like it has happened to this coaster over and over again.
                        I don't know how I "make it seem like" anything, I never said anything even remotely close to this has happened more than once on Xcelerator. This is, however, likely quite similar to incidents on other Intamin coasters with this system.
                        www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                          Originally posted by sir clinksalot View Post
                          If you look at the top of Top Thrill Dragster, you will notice they have an elevator lift and breaks at the top for that problem (which I believe has happened once). The same thing is not there on Xcelerator. When happened the maintenance crew rode up the elevator and gave the train a push and sent it down the hill.

                          There are MANY other rides that have similar mechanisms such as Vekoma Boomerangs (like at Knott's), etc. So it's not just an Intamin issue.

                          Again, the chances of this happening are VERY rare.
                          It is amazing that it can happen at all. The balance and speed have to be just right. Must have been a pretty unique experience for the people on that train.

                          End of derail.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                            Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
                            I don't know how I "make it seem like" anything, I never said anything even remotely close to this has happened more than once on Xcelerator. This is, however, likely quite similar to incidents on other Intamin coasters with this system.
                            Since we are talking about Intamin Launch coasters, which Xcelerator was the first one in the USA, could you list the problems/accidents/issues with other similar coasters?

                            I know that Top Thrill Dragster had the "weird" issue with it getting stuck at the top of the Top Hat once, but what else has gone wrong....
                            Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

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                            • #94
                              Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                              TTD had a very similar seeming issue - the cable snapped and debris injured a few riders:
                              Riders Injured on Top Thrill Dragster - WTOL.com, Toledo's News Leader, News 11 |

                              Kingda Ka, experienced a more mechanically serious issue (though thankfully it was only during testing) when part of the launch system came loose and all but destroyed an entire train:
                              RideAccidents.com -- 2005 Accident Reports and News

                              Of course there was the horrible accident at SFKK, while not on a coaster, still used cables that failed and ended up causing some serious damage.

                              And then not long after that, a similar (but fortunately less injurious) incident happened at Port Aventura:
                              CoasterCravers Reading News
                              www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                So should NO amusement park rides use cables?

                                I don't think it is the Manufacture that is at issue, it is the reliablity of using cables.

                                And if so, why do Aircraft Carriers use them to launch and "catch" aircraft?
                                Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                  Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
                                  TTD had a very similar seeming issue - the cable snapped and debris injured a few riders:
                                  Riders Injured on Top Thrill Dragster - WTOL.com, Toledo's News Leader, News 11 |

                                  Kingda Ka, experienced a more mechanically serious issue (though thankfully it was only during testing) when part of the launch system came loose and all but destroyed an entire train:
                                  RideAccidents.com -- 2005 Accident Reports and News

                                  Of course there was the horrible accident at SFKK, while not on a coaster, still used cables that failed and ended up causing some serious damage.

                                  And then not long after that, a similar (but fortunately less injurious) incident happened at Port Aventura:
                                  CoasterCravers Reading News
                                  So going back to my original post of 1.5 million (estimated) rides on the Intamin Accelerator coasters, there are now 3 incidents on those coasters. 1 of which happened when Kingda Ka was testing. IMO, that's a pretty good record. That's a 0.000002 chance of something happening on one of these coasters.

                                  The incidents on the drop towers, while VERY VERY bad shouldn't be included as I don't think the cables are the same. Similarly, are the cables manufactured by Intamin? I'm not sure on this one. Anybody?

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                    I think that it considered a given that occasionally a cable will snap. If there is a design flaw, I think it would be the lack of protection that the rider has if this problem occurs. This would be the same for the Superman Drop ride.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                      And I would say no such given applies to other cable launched rides - Schwarzkopf and S&S seem to manage just fine. But yes, another flaw would be concerning how to protect riders when cables on Intamin rides snap.

                                      Originally posted by Darkbeer View Post
                                      So should NO amusement park rides use cables?

                                      I don't think it is the Manufacture that is at issue, it is the reliablity of using cables.

                                      And if so, why do Aircraft Carriers use them to launch and "catch" aircraft?
                                      Again, I'm not sure why you're taking it to such extremes. There is a happy medium somewhere between cables break and injure people and remove all cables from all rides.

                                      Comparing use in the Navy to a trip to the amusement park is almost as much of a stretch as saying fighter jets needs to be designed so our grandmothers could fly them. The expectations of safety, accepted risk, and level of knowledge and experience are ridiculously incongruous.

                                      I suggest we look at the long history of Schwarzkopf launched coasters, and the lack of even one cable snap. Granted, Intamin's coasters are subjecting these cables to much greater forces, technology has changed so much in the past 20-30 years that you hope engineers would be able to take advantage of modern cable technology to keep up with the increased forces.

                                      I realize, for the record, that Intamin doesn't make their own cables, but it is their job, and their responsibility to ensure that the cables (and any part) they do incorporate into their design can be done so effectively. I realize it's an overstatement, but people act as if Intamin can only be held accountable if one of their engineers is out there with a hack saw sabotaging the ride. Negligence and oversight are almost always much more subtle than that.
                                      Last edited by sarki7; 09-23-2009, 10:08 AM.
                                      www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                        Sorry, sarki7, but you sound like a Intamin hater.

                                        What about Vekoma, they designed and built BTMRR that killed someone... Yes, the DOSH report basically said that Disney failed in proper maintenace practices, along with lax reporting and responding to issues the CM's operating the ride made.

                                        Yes, a cable broke on Xcelerator, and someone had "mild to moderate" injuries, which I will change to "moderate" based on the latest news reports. But no one died or had serious injuries, and it is the first accident for the ride since it opened about 7 years ago.

                                        Should Disney remove GRR, Jumpin' Jellyfish, California Screamin' and Mickey's Fun Wheel just because they were made by Intamin?
                                        Check out my Theme Park Photos at http://darkbeer.smugmug.com

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                                        • Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

                                          Originally posted by Darkbeer View Post
                                          Sorry, sarki7, but you sound like a Intamin hater.

                                          What about Vekoma, they designed and built BTMRR that killed someone... Yes, the DOSH report basically said that Disney failed in proper maintenace practices, along with lax reporting and responding to issues the CM's operating the ride made.

                                          Yes, a cable broke on Xcelerator, and someone had "mild to moderate" injuries, which I will change to "moderate" based on the latest news reports. But no one died or had serious injuries, and it is the first accident for the ride since it opened about 7 years ago.

                                          Should Disney remove GRR, Jumpin' Jellyfish, California Screamin' and Mickey's Fun Wheel just because they were made by Intamin?
                                          Goodness, goodness, goodness. I guess you missed the part where I said "I love Intamin", how I think they're coasters are mind-blowing, and offer up some of the greatest thrills in the industry.

                                          Or maybe you're of the mind that you can't be critical of something you enjoy. Because I love Intamin, I shouldn't discuss these safety issues? Or, because I discuss them, that somehow means I hate them? I think you should take a step back and realize that not everything is so black and white, that it's perfectly reasonable to enjoy something for one reason, but wish it was better for another.

                                          As far as the rest of your comments - one, I don't see how the Vekoma incident is related. Was Vekoma even slightly negligible? And if so, ok - add that to the non-Intamin list. Still not even close to Intamin, but I wouldn't want to leave anything out.

                                          And as far as Disney removing rides? Please, go back to where I suggest there is a reasonable medium between Intamin needs to address their safety issues and all parks should remove Intamin rides.
                                          www.gregscoasterphotos.com <- Go there, it's good!

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