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  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    Accidents happen. You cannot stop that. Nothing can be designed to be bullet-proof, idiot-proof, etc....When something is under great stress you can always try to replace it before it's theoretical shelf life is over, but then again it can always go bad before that period too.
    While I personally think that's a lazy excuse to justify a questionable and remarkable history of accidents - it's all well and good that this is how you look at it. I just wish, however, that it didn't appear so much that Intamin shares this same attitude.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
    No, you made that analogy that *I'm* suggesting that all Intamin's design are flawed - otherwise, what in the world was all that stuff about Arrow's roughness? You know what, forget I asked.


    It is more than apparent that no matter how many times I say The chances of getting hurt on an Intamin ride are, overall, quite small, people will ignore that and instead focus on when I say some rides and designs have had issues, and among those, there commonalities that suggests some underlying design shortcomings. I'd quote myself where I say, "How is suggesting there is a design flaw in THIS system anything close to suggesting there is a design flaw in ALL systems?", but that obviously didn't make things clear last time, so I won't expect it to now.


    Haha, I love when I hear this excuse. There wasn't a problem until there was a problem. Or, no one had gotten injured until these injuries.Yes, we acknowledge that this was the first time this accident happened on this version. But what you somehow see as an isolated event is, well, not. Not when it happens to similar rides or on similar systems.



    "It can be done"? Then how come it hasn't happened elsewhere? One second people say how rare and unlikely these events are, and the next second they simply don't acknowledge that despite this fact, Intamin is the only player coming across this issues, and doing so repeatedly. Yes, the accidents happened. Yes, Intamin changed their designs. Yes, the changes make another occurrences less likely. How does any of that change the fact that the accident occurred in the first place?



    Umm, while your car isn't redesigned, the muffler sure is! (So much for not getting lost in semantics.) If you don't like how I use "redesign", keep in mind I'm not implying it is a totally new design. I thought I made that clear when I said, "It doesn't need to be completely unique in every way to be considered a redesign." Regardess, it doesn't change the point, there was a change to the system as a result of the accident.


    Again, I think you're splitting hairs and completely losing focus on the point of this conversation. This was a design change. You call it a modification, I see no problem in saying the restraint system was redesigned. Can we move on now?


    I don't even have the faintest idea why in the world you're bringing up X2 here - unless it is to continue on the pointless modification/redesign thread.

    Are you talking about across the industry? If so, you are just plain wrong. Yes, the principle behind the designs is the same (restrain riders with harnesses that go over shoulders), but each manufacture has a unique system for doing so. Heck, even within a shop, their designs can differ drastically. Just look how different Arrow's restraints are between their mega-loopers, older loopers, suspended coasters, and then look at X/X2. Each design addressed the unique characteristics of the ride (e.g., the ergonomic profile of the train and seat design). And for reference, NONE of those had any sort of accident, even before crotch belts came around. And really, just look at how TOGO and B&M do horsecollar restraints and try to tell me they're the same.


    You have a good point here, we may never know. I just think it's telling how we never had to worry about tensile strength and expected life with the cables Schwarzkopf and S&S use - the former who has been using the technology for over 30 years now, and the latter whose use matches the intensity of Intamin.
    How many other incidents of people supposedly "slipping out" from an Intamin Horsecollar has happened? I believe it is zero. As I mentioned, if someone is TRULY determined, they can get out. I have seen people freak out on brake runs on both the Vortex and Top Gun at PGA, and climb out of the restraints, and get off the ride. Does this mean that the designs are flawed?

    How can I be wrong when I say the design is basically the same, and then you confirm it "Yes, the principle behind the designs is the same (restrain riders with harnesses that go over shoulders)" which was exactly my point.

    BTW the X harness is what is called a "butterfly" design, due to the extra adjustment available, not a horsecollar.

    Also, you keep mentioning there has not been a problem (at least that you are aware of) with Schwarzkopf having cables break on their old launched shuttles. However on an old board I used to read they had several mechanics mention cable breaks on the Tidal Waves at both Great Americas. My point is that it happens. Of course back in the late 70s when the rides were installed, there was no internet, and I would assume that because of that that most coaster enthusiasts would have NO idea if something happened or not.

    Personally (and OT) I have always loved the shuttle loops. I was bummed when PGA took out the Tidal Wave, and on my last visit to Knotts Monte was down all day.

    Accidents happen. You cannot stop that. Nothing can be designed to be bullet-proof, idiot-proof, etc....When something is under great stress you can always try to replace it before it's theoretical shelf life is over, but then again it can always go bad before that period too.

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    I have not made the analogy that all of Intamins designs are flawed,
    No, you made that analogy that *I'm* suggesting that all Intamin's design are flawed - otherwise, what in the world was all that stuff about Arrow's roughness? You know what, forget I asked.

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    you have (or at least the majority) and have hinted that they have issues across the board. I disagree. The VAST majority of their rides have had zero problems.
    It is more than apparent that no matter how many times I say The chances of getting hurt on an Intamin ride are, overall, quite small, people will ignore that and instead focus on when I say some rides and designs have had issues, and among those, there commonalities that suggests some underlying design shortcomings. I'd quote myself where I say, "How is suggesting there is a design flaw in THIS system anything close to suggesting there is a design flaw in ALL systems?", but that obviously didn't make things clear last time, so I won't expect it to now.

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    There was never a problem with their horsecollar designs until the Drop Zone event.
    Haha, I love when I hear this excuse. There wasn't a problem until there was a problem. Or, no one had gotten injured until these injuries.Yes, we acknowledge that this was the first time this accident happened on this version. But what you somehow see as an isolated event is, well, not. Not when it happens to similar rides or on similar systems.


    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    As someone mentioned (It might have been you) it is nearly impossible to accidently escape from them. However, with effort, it can be done. The strap prevents (or makes it harder) to have a repeat of the accident. It also effectively prevents those of larger size from riding, which helps in stopping a repeat of the PP fatality at Knotts.
    "It can be done"? Then how come it hasn't happened elsewhere? One second people say how rare and unlikely these events are, and the next second they simply don't acknowledge that despite this fact, Intamin is the only player coming across this issues, and doing so repeatedly. Yes, the accidents happened. Yes, Intamin changed their designs. Yes, the changes make another occurrences less likely. How does any of that change the fact that the accident occurred in the first place?


    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    Redesigns and modifications are totally different. If I change the mufflers on my car, have I modified it, or is the car now redesigned? It operates the same way, and only a minor thing has been changed. It has been modified, not redesigned. A modification implies a partial alteration, not a total alteration (or a redesign)
    Umm, while your car isn't redesigned, the muffler sure is! (So much for not getting lost in semantics.) If you don't like how I use "redesign", keep in mind I'm not implying it is a totally new design. I thought I made that clear when I said, "It doesn't need to be completely unique in every way to be considered a redesign." Regardess, it doesn't change the point, there was a change to the system as a result of the accident.

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    When they added horsecollars (totally un-needed) to Revolution at Magic Mountain, was that a modification, or a re-design? Considering they were literally bolted on to the train, and NOTHING was designed around them, or to make them fit comfortably, that again would be a modification.
    Again, I think you're splitting hairs and completely losing focus on the point of this conversation. This was a design change. You call it a modification, I see no problem in saying the restraint system was redesigned. Can we move on now?

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    When X2 opened with the brand new trains that were much lighter than the originals, those were a re-design. I tried to find some pics of the different trains, and this is what I found:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2-newtrain.jpg
    X2 (Six Flags Magic Mountain)
    I don't even have the faintest idea why in the world you're bringing up X2 here - unless it is to continue on the pointless modification/redesign thread.

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    The design of the actual horsecollar bar is similar across the board. The locking mechs are usually what is different. As I said they all share the same basic design, none of the 3 or so different designs look terribly different. You can tell they all evolved from something similar at one point.
    Are you talking about across the industry? If so, you are just plain wrong. Yes, the principle behind the designs is the same (restrain riders with harnesses that go over shoulders), but each manufacture has a unique system for doing so. Heck, even within a shop, their designs can differ drastically. Just look how different Arrow's restraints are between their mega-loopers, older loopers, suspended coasters, and then look at X/X2. Each design addressed the unique characteristics of the ride (e.g., the ergonomic profile of the train and seat design). And for reference, NONE of those had any sort of accident, even before crotch belts came around. And really, just look at how TOGO and B&M do horsecollar restraints and try to tell me they're the same.

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    I wonder if perhaps the tensile strength was poor due to bad workmanship or materials? There is a TON of things that could have played into the accident. Most likely unless someone is involved in the case, the total story will not make it out to the public.
    You have a good point here, we may never know. I just think it's telling how we never had to worry about tensile strength and expected life with the cables Schwarzkopf and S&S use - the former who has been using the technology for over 30 years now, and the latter whose use matches the intensity of Intamin.

    Leave a comment:


  • sir clinksalot
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    How far into (or over) was the cable into its expected life? I wonder if perhaps the tensile strength was poor due to bad workmanship or materials? There is a TON of things that could have played into the accident. Most likely unless someone is involved in the case, the total story will not make it out to the public.
    The cable was replaced last December and was due to be replaced this December.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
    Since when does a redesign need to be completely from scratch? Something is redesigned when it is designed again. It doesn't need to be completely unique in every way to be considered a redesign. Redesign, modification, let's not get lost in semantics here. The point is they changed something in their design, directly as a result of an accident.

    Umm, what? So the most significant thing about the fact that Intamin has had design issues with both their lap bar designs and their horsecollars...is that both are made by Intamin? Wow, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

    I'm not sure if you're comparing roughness to accidents, or using it is an analogy to suggest that I'm saying since SOME Intamin designs are flawed, ALL are flawed? Whichever you're getting at, you're quite off base. I think you're going for the later, and if so, your logic is ridiculous. How is suggesting there is a design flaw in THIS system anything close to suggesting there is a design flaw in ALL systems?

    Suggesting that from one company to another, the restraint systems are essentially the same is quite misguided. Yes, to most people they might seem that way. But we're not talking about most people. We're talking about the engineers and manufactures who design and build these complicated, intricate, and unique systems, and who KNOW no two shops do it the same way.
    I have not made the analogy that all of Intamins designs are flawed, you have (or at least the majority) and have hinted that they have issues across the board. I disagree. The VAST majority of their rides have had zero problems. There was never a problem with their horsecollar designs until the Drop Zone event. As someone mentioned (It might have been you) it is nearly impossible to accidently escape from them. However, with effort, it can be done. The strap prevents (or makes it harder) to have a repeat of the accident. It also effectively prevents those of larger size from riding, which helps in stopping a repeat of the PP fatality at Knotts.

    Redesigns and modifications are totally different. If I change the mufflers on my car, have I modified it, or is the car now redesigned? It operates the same way, and only a minor thing has been changed. It has been modified, not redesigned. A modification implies a partial alteration, not a total alteration (or a redesign)

    When they added horsecollars (totally un-needed) to Revolution at Magic Mountain, was that a modification, or a re-design? Considering they were literally bolted on to the train, and NOTHING was designed around them, or to make them fit comfortably, that again would be a modification.

    When X2 opened with the brand new trains that were much lighter than the originals, those were a re-design. I tried to find some pics of the different trains, and this is what I found:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2-newtrain.jpg

    X2 (Six Flags Magic Mountain)

    The design of the actual horsecollar bar is similar across the board. The locking mechs are usually what is different. As I said they all share the same basic design, none of the 3 or so different designs look terribly different. You can tell they all evolved from something similar at one point.

    As for getting back on track:

    How far into (or over) was the cable into its expected life? I wonder if perhaps the tensile strength was poor due to bad workmanship or materials? There is a TON of things that could have played into the accident. Most likely unless someone is involved in the case, the total story will not make it out to the public.

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Since when does a redesign need to be completely from scratch? Something is redesigned when it is designed again. It doesn't need to be completely unique in every way to be considered a redesign. Redesign, modification, let's not get lost in semantics here. The point is they changed something in their design, directly as a result of an accident.

    Umm, what? So the most significant thing about the fact that Intamin has had design issues with both their lap bar designs and their horsecollars...is that both are made by Intamin? Wow, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

    I'm not sure if you're comparing roughness to accidents, or using it is an analogy to suggest that I'm saying since SOME Intamin designs are flawed, ALL are flawed? Whichever you're getting at, you're quite off base. I think you're going for the later, and if so, your logic is ridiculous. How is suggesting there is a design flaw in THIS system anything close to suggesting there is a design flaw in ALL systems?

    Suggesting that from one company to another, the restraint systems are essentially the same is quite misguided. Yes, to most people they might seem that way. But we're not talking about most people. We're talking about the engineers and manufactures who design and build these complicated, intricate, and unique systems, and who KNOW no two shops do it the same way.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
    On the other hand, if there wasn't a flaw, there wouldn't have been an accident here. No?


    I would argue that was because other horsecollars were designed appropriately. Think about it, when it comes to most restraints, the average rider couldn't get themselves out of it if they wanted to.

    I realize it seems like I'm making a lot out of one incident, but consider a few things - one, Intamin has shown serious shortcomings with their other restrain systems. Two, this restraint system needed to be redesigned after the accident. Three, other manufacturers have not had any issues with similar restraint systems.
    The system was not redesigned, it was modified with the crotch-belt. A re-design would infer that it was re-built from scratch, which it was not.

    For example, when the valves were replaced on Ca. Screaming on the brakes with non-spec parts, was that a re-design, or a modification?

    Comparing two different restraint systems designed by the same company does not really show anything, except they were designed by the same company. Just because there may (or may not) be problems with one product does not mean that ALL of their products have issues.

    A good example of this would be Arrow. They are known to have rough coasters that do not age well. But their suspended coasters seem to have done rather well in terms of roughness. But by your account this MUST be wrong, as it was designed by Arrow, and therefore is bound to be rough.

    To most people, a horsecollar is a horsecollar. They are all essentially the same design. Some may have higher turns around the head, others use rougher material (Revolution), but they are essentially the same design.

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    I would say that due to it NOT happening on any other rides would rule out it being a design flaw. If there was an inherent flaw, theoretically there would have been another accident.
    On the other hand, if there wasn't a flaw, there wouldn't have been an accident here. No?

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    If I remember right, the modification was just the seat-belt crotch strap, no other re-designs. If it indeed a design flaw, why was this not incorporated into almost every other horsecollar restraint in existence?
    I would argue that was because other horsecollars were designed appropriately. Think about it, when it comes to most restraints, the average rider couldn't get themselves out of it if they wanted to.

    I realize it seems like I'm making a lot out of one incident, but consider a few things - one, Intamin has shown serious shortcomings with their other restrain systems. Two, this restraint system needed to be redesigned after the accident. Three, other manufacturers have not had any issues with similar restraint systems.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
    I would suggest the fact that it hasn't happened on any other rides is exactly what makes this a design flaw - seeing as it, and only it was modified immediately after the accident doesn't suggest it was A-OK. Like I said, this is akin to the T-bar situation, as well as Intamin's redesigned shoulder harnesses.
    I would say that due to it NOT happening on any other rides would rule out it being a design flaw. If there was an inherent flaw, theoretically there would have been another accident.

    If I remember right, the modification was just the seat-belt crotch strap, no other re-designs. If it indeed a design flaw, why was this not incorporated into almost every other horsecollar restraint in existence?

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by PinBrian View Post
    It was a combination of events that caused it, plain and simple. The only possible design flaw would have been the standard horse-collar restraint, which if was proven to be bad, would mean that most looping coasters in the world would need a MAJOR re-design. Since this has not happened, it is pretty easy to rule out a design flaw in the harness.
    I would suggest the fact that it hasn't happened on any other rides is exactly what makes this a design flaw - seeing as it, and only it was modified immediately after the accident doesn't suggest it was A-OK. Like I said, this is akin to the T-bar situation, as well as Intamin's redesigned shoulder harnesses.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post
    Wait, you can't comment on exactly what you know...and then you proceed to comment on what you know. I'm glad I'm not your lawyer.

    Yes, we've heard all that before, which is why I'm confident in the design flaw assessment and its inclusion in the list. Something doesn't have to BREAK to be a failure in design. The after-the-fact addition of the seatbelts is evidence of that.
    I did not give specifics, which is exactly what I was asked not to do.
    It was a combination of events that caused it, plain and simple. The only possible design flaw would have been the standard horse-collar restraint, which if was proven to be bad, would mean that most looping coasters in the world would need a MAJOR re-design. Since this has not happened, it is pretty easy to rule out a design flaw in the harness.

    Leave a comment:


  • CoasterMatt
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Tinfoil hats and bubblewrap dispensers are going up at every amusement park next...

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Wait, you can't comment on exactly what you know...and then you proceed to comment on what you know. I'm glad I'm not your lawyer.

    Yes, we've heard all that before, which is why I'm confident in the design flaw assessment and its inclusion in the list. Something doesn't have to BREAK to be a failure in design. The after-the-fact addition of the seatbelts is evidence of that.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post

    As for the Drop Zone incident - the cause IS unknown. Mechanical malfunction is not suspected, but no clear culprit was ever identified. This is included in the list because of it is the general assumption that the boy came out of his restraints - either with specific intent to do so or because of an unchecked restraint - something that would still fit in the "design flaw" catagory, akin to the T-bar issues (e.g., not a mechanical failure, but an insufficiently designed restraint and a computer system that allows dispatch without locking harnesses).
    As I said, I was involved with the case. I know exactly what happened, and the details were not released to the public, nor am I allowed to comment on exactly what I know.

    I can say it was NOT caused by mechanical failure, nor due to unchecked restraints. The restraints, when used *correctly* work just fine.

    The crotch-belt was a direct answer to what caused the accident, and has effectively eliminated it from happening again.

    Leave a comment:


  • sarki7
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    While this food analogy is more than a little ridiculous, I can't resist.

    Jester, if these 5 apples were injuring, or potentially killing people, you can be sure as heck the farm would be investigated.

    What do you think the odds are of getting sick from tainted food? With all the leaves of spinach out there, for example, you can bet the chances are slim - but a recall is enacted because such a risk is unacceptable. Just because something is RARE doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated!

    As for the Drop Zone incident - the cause IS unknown. Mechanical malfunction is not suspected, but no clear culprit was ever identified. This is included in the list because of it is the general assumption that the boy came out of his restraints - either with specific intent to do so or because of an unchecked restraint - something that would still fit in the "design flaw" catagory, akin to the T-bar issues (e.g., not a mechanical failure, but an insufficiently designed restraint and a computer system that allows dispatch without locking harnesses).

    But really, kids, eat your greens and ride your coasters.
    Last edited by sarki7; 09-24-2009, 08:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JesterMn
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    ^I had brought that point up earlier. Actually, I thought it was more inconclusive, but it did not appear to be the fault of Intamin. Interesting to hear a confirmation.

    Originally posted by ducksman View Post
    No, but if the apples all came from the same farm I'd assume there was a safety problem at that farm and take my business elsewhere.
    Really? Even if that same farm has millions of safe apples (as Intamin has had millions of safe riders)? If just 5--count them, five individual apples--are bad, that farm should be investigated? Good luck in the apple business. Bad apples, while never wanted, are statistically bound to happen. People and machines are not infallible. And 5 out of 1,000,000 does not strike me as an alarming amount. Might as well buy a lottery ticket.

    Leave a comment:


  • PinBrian
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Originally posted by sarki7 View Post

    The following is just a sample of the Intamin rides that had have moderate to serious mechanical/design malfunctions:
    Drop Zone - PGA
    If you are referring to the incident where the young man fell from the ride, there were NO malfunctions.

    I will not comment on it in a public forum, but I was involved with the case, and Intamin was not at fault in that accident.

    Leave a comment:


  • ducksman
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    No, but if the apples all came from the same farm I'd assume there was a safety problem at that farm and take my business elsewhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • JesterMn
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    I really shouldn't...

    I guess myself, Darkbeer, Sir Clinksalot, and flynnibus are all in the crazy club. Let the membership begin.

    We really need to start a class in statistics, probability, and odds.

    If 5 Ford cars blow up, out of the hundreds they manufacture and millions of drivers, it's not statistically significant. It's 5 isolated problems that may or may not be unrelated. If GM has none, that's great for GM, but it's not really comparable, because they're not even making the same kind of car!

    If there is an outbreak of a pesticide that was found to affect 5 apples out of all the apples in the country, are oranges necessarily safer?

    Leave a comment:


  • ducksman
    replied
    Re: Coaster Accident at Knotts Berry Farm

    Really? People are arguing against that? Wow. That's just crazy talk then.

    If GM and Ford made cars and 5 Ford cars blew up in five years and zero GM cars blew up in the same amount of time, I'd say that Ford had a design problem and GM didn't. Sure the odds might still be small that my ford would blow up seeing how there are thousands of Fords driving millions of miles every day, but I'd still say that there was a design flaw on the Fords causing the cars to blow up.

    Leave a comment:

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