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  • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    Originally posted by heatisonthestreet View Post
    i still dont understand why Seaworld havent sent their rescue people out to taiji if they love conservation so much.

    nothing to so with seaworld having backhand deals with the fisherman of Taiji is it?

    it all corrupt.
    SeaWorld as a company has distanced themselves from the drive fisheries and made their public position on this practice clear. Whether or not they are doing enough is a different subject beyond their conservation efforts. SeaWorld's rescue and rehabilitation efforts are focused on helping stranded, injured, and sick animals in and around the US. Changing a cultural practice in another country is in a entirely different realm of conservation dealing with social, legal, and political issues.

    I found this article on the subject from 2009 interesting because it attempts to look at both sides. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32274599#.UuFRcvso5kg

    SeaWorld's own video dissection of The Cove, although obviously from their point of view, brings to light the ways in which anyone with an agenda can make a point by bending information to suit their needs. ***Updated*** SeaWorld Discusses Drive Fisheries | SeaWorld Parks Blog

    Comment


    • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

      Thanks Skylala, the First Star, and gardener14 and anyone else I may have missed; you guys are doing an awesome job of making see both sides of this. Thank you for all your info and links and such. You all have given me a lot to think about. And lots to research.

      Comment


      • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

        Thanks, coopercaseycody! It's been a really fun, thought-provoking discussion. I, too, want to thank Skylala, gardener14, evergreen, techskip, and everyone else who has contributed to the discussion for their thoughtful, intelligent comments.
        Check out the MICECHAT Duffy Forum
        :love:Bringing the Love since January 10, 2011:love:

        Comment


        • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

          Yes it's nice to have such a discussion. Normally it's impossible without starting a screaming match.
          Anyway, here I go again lol.

          The central issue is that the lifespan of captive cetaceans is shorter than in the wild
          This is incorrect, at least for Bottlenose Dolphins.

          It has been proven that there's little difference between life expectancies in the wild vs captivity
          http://rosmarus.com/Download/Survival.pdf
          Dolphins - interesting dolphin facts

          Dolphin Population in Sarasota, Florida and Indian/Banana River, FLorida have an Annual Survival Rate (ASR) of 0.961 and 0.920 respectively.
          In captivity the Annual Survival Rate is 0.951 (1988-1992)

          It is not rare for dolphins in captivity to live past their 20's and into their 30's and 40s. Captivity has also reached the max lifespan of 60 years from a captive-bred animal, still alive today actually.

          In fact, every single facility under the AMMPA (Alliance of Marine Mammal Parks and Aquariums) in the US have dolphins over 20 years old and all but two facilities have dolphins over 30.
          Phin'ventory: Captive Dolphins & Porpoises


          as do the vibrations of their own echolocation bouncing back to them. If you can prove that this argument is incorrect, great.
          Well I can't prove this, but it is logical this argument doesn't work. Echolocation is supposed to bounce back to the dolphin. It's the entire point of its function. Dolphins don't constantly send out echolocation, they choose when and how they do it and they can choose the intensity or 'distance' they want to throw those clicks. Sending out the clicks and having it bounce back against the wall would simply tell the dolphin there is a wall there... This would help them navigate their pools at night time. If it bothered them, they could choose to simply not use their sonar. Though in all honesty I can't see how it causes them any form of stress. I have heard this argument before, mostly from PETA sites (Aquariums and Marine Parks | Zoos and Pseudo-Sanctuaries | Animals Used for Entertainment | The Issues | PETA) and anti-captive supporters but I have never actually seen any data that supports this 'theory'.

          We know they feel stress, as the ulcers and other health issues indicate.
          What dolphins have ulcers? I'm sure some do. I'd just like to know who they are and how many.

          are housed in pools infinitesimally smaller than their natural range
          Well this could be said for a large amount of animals in captivity. In fact almost every one.

          I'm disgusted by a lot of dolphin tanks, but that doesn't mean I don't think it can be done, and done well. Places like Sea World Australia and Dolfinarium Harderwijk, they're doing it right and this should be the standard.

          Why can't trainer interaction be for the animals' own good?

          Further, you still have not explained why training to jump really high and touch a flag or flip around, or training to swim around and splash the audience is equivalent to learning math, but none of the activities I mentioned are. Why is it only like learning math when the activity culminates in a show with an audience?

          Why can't the trainers' jobs be more about enriching the animals' lives and less about putting on a good show?

          This is where we fundamentally disagree and really don't see us agreeing here : P I mean it's not bad thing, it's just our perspectives.

          You believe training animals tricks and performing is not for the animals' own good, when I believe it is.

          I did say novel things like bubbles or water jets or whatever else are very good enrichment, but they don't change like training does. So the animals have to get creative to make up their own games. And that's a good thing too.
          The thing is, you have an animal in captivity for 40 years, and novel things like that becoming boring relatively quickly so you must switch them out and rotate them. That's a huge amount of toy and enrichment rotation over the animals lifetime, to the point you will struggle to think up new ways and items to entertain them because they've "seen and done that" a million times before.

          But I'm seriously not saying don't give them enrichment like that. They SHOULD have it. All I am saying is training and performing is just one more thing you can add to their day to make it less boring. It's also bonding and trust building between trainers and animals, and when you have group performances, you have animals working with each other as well. It's just more time they can do something so they're not biting the tank gates... I have actually seen dolphins 'practicing' the new tricks they have learned in their own free time.

          That's just my opinion. I don't see training as a bad thing, I don't see the 'tricks' as degrading. In fact I view it the opposite; I appreciate how intelligent the animals are when I can see something like that. I'm impressed with their beauty and strength and the effort that has gone into training those complex behaviors.

          Obviously other people don't see it like that. They just say 'degrading circus-tricks'.
          As an animal trainer, I strongly disagree, as I know first-hand the benefit of training, for the animals own mental-well being, for trust-building between animal and trainers, for exercise and for the social aspects as well.

          Comment


          • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

            Micechat's articles with former trainers Mark Simmons and Bridgette Pyrtle have been criticized for their journalism qualities and lack of follow up questions. I just found another article with those two trainers from the San Antonio Express News which conveys much of the same information as the Micechat articles, but I think it expresses the trainers' views and the overall situation much more clearly. I'm not in agreement with everything they say, so I'm not posting it here to push a side. I just think it's a better article to get their views from. It also clarifies Micechat's confusing statement from Pyrtle about simultaneously disagreeing with the film, supporting SeaWorld in some ways, and saying that whales shouldn't be used for entertainment or captive breeding. (That's the part I disagree with, but to each his own).

            Ex-SeaWorld trainers dispute 'Blackfish,' say phase out whale show - San Antonio Express-News
            Last edited by gardener14; 01-24-2014, 12:21 PM.

            Comment


            • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

              It's difficult to know if you can trust the information when the source is biased, and this is true whether you support SeaWorld, zoos, and aquariums, or you support the anti-captivity activists. However, there seems to be a bit more information in the news lately that is more unbiased. The article I posted above is a start, and here is another. It's refreshing to read news that attempts to sort through the bias and misinformation from either side.

              SeaWorld, activists make questionable claims about killer whale survival - Orlando Sentinel

              Comment


              • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                Originally posted by gardener14 View Post
                SeaWorld as a company has distanced themselves from the drive fisheries and made their public position on this practice clear. Whether or not they are doing enough is a different subject beyond their conservation efforts. SeaWorld's rescue and rehabilitation efforts are focused on helping stranded, injured, and sick animals in and around the US. Changing a cultural practice in another country is in a entirely different realm of conservation dealing with social, legal, and political issues.

                I found this article on the subject from 2009 interesting because it attempts to look at both sides. Dolphin hunt film sparks dilemma for tourists - Travel - News | NBC News

                SeaWorld's own video dissection of The Cove, although obviously from their point of view, brings to light the ways in which anyone with an agenda can make a point by bending information to suit their needs. ***Updated*** SeaWorld Discusses Drive Fisheries | SeaWorld Parks Blog
                Part of Blackfish reply to Seaworld:

                We ask SeaWorld again to address these concerns:
                SeaWorld claims it does not capture killer whales in the wild.

                Blackfish Official Film Site

                Comment


                • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                  Wonderful accusations but there is no documented evidence.
                  Amnesia used to be my favourite word, but I forgot it.

                  Comment


                  • Sea & Space World ? (Just an idea)

                    After Orcas are no longer confined in tanks at sea parks, I think there will be a longer fight to get all dolphins out too:

                    One link below is to a movie preview, "The Cove," and another is about a documentary about the same guy who tries to stop atrocities in Japan, and seems to be opposed to having any dolphins in captivity:

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzuSULcqgxQ

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KRD8e20fBo

                    Unless kids and adults are still exposed to dolphins and killer whales in films, on TV and at school, people may lose interest in them and more could be hurt. I wrote this before: the head of an aquarium informed me that before "Shamu" made folks go, "Awww!" some fishermen almost got approval to shoot orcas with machine guns because they competed with them for fish, and they had very little opposition to the shooting plan.

                    Maybe Sea World will do even more animal rehabilitation in the future.

                    I know how weird an idea this is, but maybe Sea Worlds could become:
                    "Sea & Space Worlds"
                    or better yet, just: Sea & Space
                    and add the world's coolest planetariums, indoor space coasters (unoriginal, I know), and. . . ???
                    Space is cool, with little thanks to Mission Space. The more Neil Degrasse Tyson the better.
                    Last edited by jcruise86; 04-12-2014, 05:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                      Sea World does a great deal of animal rehabilitation and rescue. Back in the late 1990's, they rescued an orphaned grey whale calf and nursed her back to health. She was released and is probably still swimming up and down in the Pacific to this day. (Her transmitter fell off shortly after her release.)
                      Sea World has a show with dogs, cats, and the occasional bird. All the animals were rescued from the shelter system or other unfortunate circumstances. Which they make a point of telling the audience at the beginning of the show.

                      Comment


                      • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                        http://da15bdaf715461308003-0c725c90...ing-points.pdf

                        This is an excellent list that breaks down Blackfish, minute by minute, and exposes all of it's inaccuracies, misleads and outright falsehoods.

                        Comment


                        • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                          Seaworld Mike,
                          "While I agree that animals in captivity as a general rule is not desirable or probably the best thing for them, I recognize that human beings are quickly poisoning our world, killing off entire species and destroying their habitat."

                          - First I will answer this. humans are poisoning our world huh? Like the decades Seaworld dumped illegal drugs down the toilets knowing that it dumps out to sea?
                          Poisoning our world like when SW stole the killer whales and broke a matriarchal line that had been building for millions of years? Those killer whales were absolutely essential to the ecosystems you ruined when you removed the dozens of orcas from their habitats, not the mention the ones that died during...

                          "Our oceans are dying.Many aquatic species, such as river dolphins, are either extinct or quickly will be."

                          - Removing marine mammals from their ecosystem does this- it is proven that only man is the reason behind such a dramatic decline. If you had left them alone, they would not be endangered now. I believe this is unequivocably true especially in the Pacific NorthWest and the endangered status of the L pod, Lolita's Pod. Although that Miami seaquarium, its the industry.

                          "SeaWorld is one of the best organizations out there to bring awareness to people what magnificent and wonderful creatures are present in our oceans, and makes people feel compassionate towards them. "

                          - Let me just jump in here: How many people that went to seaworld (raise your hand) learned anything about them in the wild?
                          ........ thats what i thought. I have watched the sows on youtube...there is nothing I learned about them in fact you are doing a great disservice to the species that made you all millionaires.

                          "SeaWorld has also rescued thousands of marine creatures, returning them to the wild, and continues to do so. For these reasons alone, I support SeaWorld and will continue to do so."

                          - you mean the sealions? or the pelican? or ... just because you wash one hand doesn't mean both are clean. Live the straight path of truth. Right now you are not. They have not rescued and released any of the sentient apex predators or the dolphins...unles you call an early grave a release?

                          "Until someone comes up with a plan to help people connect with marine life on a massive and incredibly emotional scale such as SeaWorld does, I cannot condone or even understand the vicious attacks that are done on this organization."

                          - There are numerous technoligaclly advances systems out there -4D 3D virtual sensory play, check out the virtual zoos!! the kids love them! that is the future.

                          the learning is what i judge seaworld by, and from what i'm learning...its not pretty and its not going to be a sustainable business model for the future...

                          Comment


                          • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                            I saw this story about Sea World losing an appeal in the L.A. Times today, and here's a link to another article about this in the Huff. Post:
                            SeaWorld Loses Appeal Of Ruling On Death Of Orca Trainer Dawn Brancheau

                            Feel free to link other articles about this in other publications.

                            It might be interesting how Sea World & its fans spin this loss. Has Sea World trained their followers to automatically defend them? Just kidding.

                            Here's another article link--this one from Sea World rival, ABC News/Disney:
                            http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...whale-23295143
                            Last edited by jcruise86; 04-13-2014, 05:40 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld


                              It might be interesting how Sea World & its fans spin this loss.


                              Spin. Spin. Spin. The only thing SW apologists can say is "bad decision".

                              If you hear this argument, make sure to comment back that now two courts
                              have heard the same evidence and have reached the same conclusion. They sat there for weeks listening to the evidence presented in court. They have reviewed all of the court transcripts. These rulings are well thought out.

                              I think it will be interesting if SW appeals again. I bet they don't, but pray they do as it is the
                              closest thing SW will come to a public debate about worker safety inside SW.






                              Comment


                              • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                I think the court was stupid to make that decision. They show that they think we should live in a bubble wrapped world.
                                Be Cool Stay in School!
                                Next year I'm trying for a summer internship at Stark Industries.

                                Comment


                                • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                  The thing about the OSHA ruling is that there's no one at the department who knows anything about training killer whales.

                                  OSHA has 4 sets of regulations:
                                  Maritime. Not really applicable to the death of Dawn Brancheau since she wasn't on a ship.
                                  Agricultural. Not applicable because food production was not involved.
                                  Construction. Not applicable since construction was not in progress at the time.
                                  General Industry. This is what OSHA charged SeaWorld under. There are many things at SeaWorld that apply to the General Industry Clause. Training killer whales, not being something that is done by the general populace, is not one of them. The OSHA inspectors don't have any experience training marine mammals, so their knowledge has to be informed by outside "experts". These "experts" in the case of Dawn Brancheau are the same people who played an instrumental part in the production of Blackfish.
                                  Amnesia used to be my favourite word, but I forgot it.

                                  Comment


                                  • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                    Trainer-Shmainer! Owwwww, you're a "trainer"! Wow.
                                    Originally posted by Exprmnt626 View Post
                                    The thing about the OSHA ruling is that there's no one at the department who knows anything about training killer whales.
                                    . . . Training killer whales, not being something that is done by the general populace, is not one of them. The OSHA inspectors don't have any experience training marine mammals. . .
                                    Isn't OSHA primarily concerned about the safety of the people working with the orcas?
                                    Someone was fatally injured, and Sea World failed to convince OSHA it could never happen again if they swim together daily.

                                    And does training an animal make one an expert biologist about that species? If only OSHA had been there for those famous Vegas animal trainers Roy & Siegfried. I bet that even some hunters know more about bears than some bear trainers do. The trainers are there to help the owners make money in the most cost effective way, not that there's ever anything wrong with that.




                                    Last edited by jcruise86; 05-25-2014, 05:31 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                      Originally posted by jcruise86 View Post



                                      And does training an animal (or eating an animal for that matter) make one an expert biologist about that species?



                                      Is this for real or a joke?

                                      Comment


                                      • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                        Originally posted by Amber View Post
                                        Is this for real or a joke?
                                        Just keepin' the conversation lively. Sorry, Amber--I deleted the eating bit.

                                        I don't know if this old clip of a monkey is a suit will be successfully posted, but it seems like when humans train other species, we have them do what will entertain us or what we imagine would be cool if we were them--an elephant walking on its hind legs, a chimp smoking, etc. I'm optimistic that Sea World will change for the better as we come to appreciate how interesting animals are when they follow their instincts.

                                        Last edited by jcruise86; 05-25-2014, 05:51 PM.

                                        Comment


                                        • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                                          And here's one of chimps drinking (posted on Youtube) that will probably stay up:
                                          CareerBuilder.com "Monkeys Drinking" TV commercial - YouTube
                                          Congrats to those TRAINERS.
                                          (Note: the commercial is preceded by another 15 second ad.)

                                          Conversation that has never taken place at a great university:
                                          "What are you majoring in?"
                                          "Biology. I hope to carry on the work of Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey."
                                          "What a coincidence. I'm majoring in animal training, specifically for entertainment purposes."

                                          (Note: that is how Ms. Fossey spelled "Dian.")
                                          Last edited by jcruise86; 05-25-2014, 05:59 PM.

                                          Comment

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