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  • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

    You have to wonder CNN continues to show this one sided nondocumentary/mockumentary , month after month after month I wasn't going to bring this biased piece of junk to the top of the micechat boards, but now that someone else has already, I'll post my thoughts. CNN is certainly NOT the unbiased reporting company that I thought they were at one point.
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    • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

      Originally posted by jcruise86 View Post
      Conversation that has never taken place at a great university:
      "What are you majoring in?"
      "Biology. I hope to carry on the work of Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey."
      "What a coincidence. I'm majoring in animal training, specifically for entertainment purposes."


      Right, what actually happens is they say, "I'm majoring in Psychology and hope to carry on the work of Skinner, Pavlov, Karen Pryor and countless others. I think you are significantly underestimating some of the individuals that work with animals at Sea World or elsewhere just because their title is "trainer". Almost all have degrees in biology or psychology and many have advanced degrees in related fields. Many contribute to scientific journals. Almost all management at these facilities have doctoral level degrees in scientific fields.
      Last edited by Amber; 05-25-2014, 06:35 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Amber View Post


        Right, what actually happens is they say, "I'm majoring in Psychology and hope to carry on the work of Skinner, Pavlov, Karen Pryor and countless others. I think you are significantly underestimating some of the individuals that work with animals at Sea World or elsewhere just because their title is "trainer". Almost all have degrees in biology or psychology and many have advanced degrees in related fields. Many contribute to scientific journals. Almost all management at these facilities have doctoral level degrees in scientific fields.
        Then I sit corrected.

        The Sea World park in Orlando is beautiful, and I went to school in San Diego and love the location of that park. I do miss the free beer samples back when Anheuser-Busch owned them. (Did they have that at all of the Sea World parks?) I hope Sea World not only survives, but becomes better than ever despite all of us misguided animal lovers. Again, I think Sea World should announce that the orca performance shows will run for x more years. (5?, 7?) and then dolphin shows will be gone ten years after than, though Sea World could care for injured animals. (I trust Sea World's CEO wouldn't then "accidently" and/or furtively injure any animals.)
        And now I'll get. . . :ot:
        As I've posted before, I think Sea World should become Sea & Space, with a mind blowing planetarium show, a Soarin' type ride through the galaxy, and a Space-themed thrill ride that is a rip-off of/tribute to Space Mountain, but bigger, faster & d a r k e r
        --but no loops or over the head, padded, ear-banging bars please. Improve upon it. Cedar Point, a beautiful park on Lake Erie in Sandusky, Ohio, used to have a cheesy, cheaper version of Space Mountain, and if Sea & Space's attraction were better than Space Mountain, many people would forgive their lack of originality. And if Sea World is really devoted to science, they could have a permanent JPL exhibit staffed by real JPL/Cal-Tech to answer questions at an exhibit--the way Disneyland used to have chemisty teachers in Tomorrowland. The JPL open house to the north of Pasadena might be back on for the fall of 2014, btw. If you're into space, it's was pretty fantastic the last time they had it.

        Aladdin, CNN hit a different low in their coverage of that missing crashed plane. On CNN.com they made it the headline story every day for weeks, even when it seemed like they had almost nothing to report. Even President Obama joked about their coverage of this tragedy at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. So insulting CNN is kind of like insulting Justin Bieber or Donald Sterling at this point in 2014.

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        • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

          Originally posted by jcruise86 View Post

          I hope Sea World not only survives, but becomes better than ever despite all of us misguided animal lovers. Again, I think Sea World should announce that the orca performance shows will run for x more years. (5?, 7?) and then dolphin shows will be gone ten years after than, though Sea World could care for injured animals. (I trust Sea World's CEO wouldn't then "accidently" and/or furtively injure any animals.)
          .
          I would like them to survive as well, per your vision jcruise. However, I am concerned that SW might not follow this trend after reading recently upbeat investor reports. After months of their stock being battered by the effects of BF, the some investor reports show that SW is now a stock that should be bought. The stock is down 14% year over year, and the belief is that the effect of the movie is waning. Attendance is predicated to go up also because of improved food service and the 50th anniversary events. These factors are predicated to erase the 2% attendance decline caused by BF.

          Unfortunately, I believe the only way to get SW to change toward your vision is to show BF has a lasting impact, i.e, attendance figures continue to decline. The next few financial quarters will be critical. If the BF effect shows some longevity, I predict that SW will start to seriously investigate shifting the style of their business.

          (My Source for the SW came from Standard and Poor's stock report, through my brokerage account. I could not figure out how to provide a direct link for Micechat. Sorry...)

          SW wants to expand by building more parks. It would be great if they designed one of these parks without the Orca shows to see how the park performed from an attendance and business point of view. If successful, they could confidently phase in your plan.

          Comment


          • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

            While I definitely see and appreciate the various points of view I've seen on this thread, including those who envision a different business model for SeaWorld based upon their wishes, I wanted to point some things out that might be helpful in your viewpoints on SeaWorld.

            First of all, I've seen quite a bit of armchair speculating, some of it fairly dismissive of SeaWorld and its actual value and purposes. Everything from envisioning trainers as nothing more than "whip holders" to envisioning very different business models for a park from those who don't really understand that SeaWorld is a theme park, but very different from those whose main purpose is to have rides and entertain people with rides, etc. and also this perception that SeaWorld needs to change, because some perceive that the shows are circus events or something. I wanted to address these things.

            First things first; trainers are definitively NOT whip holders. I am very good friends with many trainers. Most of the trainers I know prefer to be called animal behaviorists because of the heavy components of behavioral science and psychology involved in their field. Many of them have degrees in either marine biology or psychology, or in some cases both. They are hardworking, intelligent and wonderfully knowledgeable people, who have all paid their dues in stinking fish and buckets of fish guts or the equivalent of that. They deserve more than such dismissive and casual disrespect. I know the apology has been made by one person, but frankly, that really doesn't do it for me. All the trainers I know take a lot of crap from people these days and its a tough job, yet every one of them sincerely cares for the animals in their care and works very hard to make sure those animals are healthy and happy. They really are heroes in a way people don't understand or appreciate.

            Second, SeaWorld has a product that it sells to the public. It is conservation and education wrapped in a thick shell of entertainment. That shell of entertainment is pretty thick and candy coated because through careful research and long experience SeaWorld has found that people like to take their medicine with a spoonful of sugar. It isn't about throwing circus performances for money and corporate greed. People don't want to be preached at, they want to hear a message wrapped in feel-goods so they don't realize they're taking medicine. That isn't guess work on my part; it is very carefully gleaned information by marketing who have long experience at this game. Those people who dismiss this and live in some fantasy world where everyone is altruistic and will take their medicine in big bitter and boring dollops from you-tube or people preaching a cause don't get it because they aren't exposed to the everyday, real-world buying habits of people.

            Yes, they are a for profit company, but to read some peoples reactions, you'd think that capitalism was a crime in this country. Guess what folks...SeaWorld makes money! Wow, big shocker! It's the only way they can keep the doors open. Without money they can't keep going.

            Last, orca and dolphins are not, I repeat, NOT miserable and living in bathtubs. Ridiculous. I have talked to many orca trainers and also spent time with the orca first hand and I can tell you, they aren't performing circus tricks. Everything they do are extension of things they do on their own in the wild. They can't hear in human ranges, so the whole "having to perform to blasting rock music" thing is a ridiculous argument based on ignorance. I spent several hours by the orca enclosure in San Antonio and saw the orca playing together and having a great time, happy as can be in their so called 'bathtub'. They sure didn't seem to be miserable and psychotic like the radical activists claim. Sakari was taking great joy in coming over to where we were at and spitting water at random intervals and making us run. As one trainer put it she was having, "great fun making the monkeys run." She was doing that all on her own, because presumably, she thought it was funny and was taking joy out of it. Seems pretty strange for an animal that is supposedly miserable. I can tell similar stories about dolphins. Why would they hate where they live? They are given plenty of food, stimulated and given plenty of tasks to challenge them, get lots of exercise, the environment is kept healthy, clean and comfortable and they are loved greatly by those they work with on a daily basis and adored by millions who see them every year.

            Bottom line is, SeaWorld is doing amazing work, not just domestically where they rehabilitate and return to the wild many, many animals each year (which they have been doing for a LONG time without taking any credit, only since they have started being attacked have they stepped up the awareness campaigns for good PR) as well as doing incredibly important work around the world with the SeaWorld & Busch Gardens Conservation Fund.

            All this angst and concern over 27 orca that are perfectly happy and secure...sure wish people would direct all this attention and energy into real problems; like ocean conservation and cleanup.

            Comment


            • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

              I am trying to watch Blackfish now... I feel a very deep anger against people that still visit these parks. There are no excuses, have never been, will never be.
              I hope Seaworld and all parks like it some day will be forced to close. We as guests in the parks can make the choice to where we want to spend our money.

              "They are given plenty of food, stimulated and given plenty of tasks to challenge them, get lots of exercise, the environment is kept healthy, clean and comfortable and they are loved greatly by those they work with on a daily basis and adored by millions who see them every year."

              They are nothing but prisoners. Seaworld is a prison for these creatures.

              I am truly disgusted by this.

              I will NEVER give my money to those parks, that is for sure. I urge everyone that sees and reads this never to visit Seaworld again. Only WE can stop this.
              Last edited by TimmyTimmyTimmy; 05-29-2014, 03:26 PM.

              Comment


              • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                Originally posted by SeaWorldMike View Post
                While I definitely see and appreciate the various points of view I've seen on this thread, including those who envision a different business model for SeaWorld based upon their wishes, I wanted to point some things out that might be helpful in your viewpoints on SeaWorld.

                First of all, I've seen quite a bit of armchair speculating, some of it fairly dismissive of SeaWorld and its actual value and purposes. Everything from envisioning trainers as nothing more than "whip holders" to envisioning very different business models for a park from those who don't really understand that SeaWorld is a theme park, but very different from those whose main purpose is to have rides and entertain people with rides, etc. and also this perception that SeaWorld needs to change, because some perceive that the shows are circus events or something. I wanted to address these things.

                First things first; trainers are definitively NOT whip holders. I am very good friends with many trainers. Most of the trainers I know prefer to be called animal behaviorists because of the heavy components of behavioral science and psychology involved in their field. Many of them have degrees in either marine biology or psychology, or in some cases both. They are hardworking, intelligent and wonderfully knowledgeable people, who have all paid their dues in stinking fish and buckets of fish guts or the equivalent of that. They deserve more than such dismissive and casual disrespect. I know the apology has been made by one person, but frankly, that really doesn't do it for me. All the trainers I know take a lot of crap from people these days and its a tough job, yet every one of them sincerely cares for the animals in their care and works very hard to make sure those animals are healthy and happy. They really are heroes in a way people don't understand or appreciate.

                Second, SeaWorld has a product that it sells to the public. It is conservation and education wrapped in a thick shell of entertainment. That shell of entertainment is pretty thick and candy coated because through careful research and long experience SeaWorld has found that people like to take their medicine with a spoonful of sugar. It isn't about throwing circus performances for money and corporate greed. People don't want to be preached at, they want to hear a message wrapped in feel-goods so they don't realize they're taking medicine. That isn't guess work on my part; it is very carefully gleaned information by marketing who have long experience at this game. Those people who dismiss this and live in some fantasy world where everyone is altruistic and will take their medicine in big bitter and boring dollops from you-tube or people preaching a cause don't get it because they aren't exposed to the everyday, real-world buying habits of people.

                Yes, they are a for profit company, but to read some peoples reactions, you'd think that capitalism was a crime in this country. Guess what folks...SeaWorld makes money! Wow, big shocker! It's the only way they can keep the doors open. Without money they can't keep going.

                Last, orca and dolphins are not, I repeat, NOT miserable and living in bathtubs. Ridiculous. I have talked to many orca trainers and also spent time with the orca first hand and I can tell you, they aren't performing circus tricks. Everything they do are extension of things they do on their own in the wild. They can't hear in human ranges, so the whole "having to perform to blasting rock music" thing is a ridiculous argument based on ignorance. I spent several hours by the orca enclosure in San Antonio and saw the orca playing together and having a great time, happy as can be in their so called 'bathtub'. They sure didn't seem to be miserable and psychotic like the radical activists claim. Sakari was taking great joy in coming over to where we were at and spitting water at random intervals and making us run. As one trainer put it she was having, "great fun making the monkeys run." She was doing that all on her own, because presumably, she thought it was funny and was taking joy out of it. Seems pretty strange for an animal that is supposedly miserable. I can tell similar stories about dolphins. Why would they hate where they live? They are given plenty of food, stimulated and given plenty of tasks to challenge them, get lots of exercise, the environment is kept healthy, clean and comfortable and they are loved greatly by those they work with on a daily basis and adored by millions who see them every year.

                Bottom line is, SeaWorld is doing amazing work, not just domestically where they rehabilitate and return to the wild many, many animals each year (which they have been doing for a LONG time without taking any credit, only since they have started being attacked have they stepped up the awareness campaigns for good PR) as well as doing incredibly important work around the world with the SeaWorld & Busch Gardens Conservation Fund.

                All this angst and concern over 27 orca that are perfectly happy and secure...sure wish people would direct all this attention and energy into real problems; like ocean conservation and cleanup.
                I am very sorry if I offend you... It is not my intention... but I really have to ask if you truly believe in what you wrote? It is just like saying to a prisoner: "If we make the prison nice and cozy with loots of books to read, great food to eat and many fun things to do inside you will be happy here." ...but the prisoner is still a prisoner... and who wants to be that?

                Comment


                • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                  Originally posted by TimmyTimmyTimmy View Post
                  I am trying to watch Blackfish now... I feel a very deep anger against people that still visit these parks. There are no excuses, have never been, will never be.
                  I hope Seaworld and all parks like it some day will be forced to close. We as guests in the parks can make the choice to where we want to spend our money.

                  "They are given plenty of food, stimulated and given plenty of tasks to challenge them, get lots of exercise, the environment is kept healthy, clean and comfortable and they are loved greatly by those they work with on a daily basis and adored by millions who see them every year."

                  They are nothing but prisoners. Seaworld is a prison for these creatures.

                  I am truly disgusted by this.

                  I will NEVER give my money to those parks, that is for sure. I urge everyone that sees and reads this never to visit Seaworld again. Only WE can stop this.

                  TimmyTimmyTimmy, if you stopped and REALLY thought the whole thing through you'd see the utter hypocrisy of your stand against SeaWorld.

                  Let's put the fact that the entire wretched movie Crackfish is a pack of manipulative lies designed to manipulate your emotions in a dishonest and deceptive way and go with just the straight dope on animals in general.

                  So it's a PRISON? I guess the same way people imprison dogs and cats and every other domestic animal then? Got to turn all of them loose, because they are imprisoned. OH, you want to pick and choose though, don't you. Pick and choose what animals you call imprisoned and which you don't. Based upon how long they have been kept imprisoned. So cats have been imprisoned now for about 5000 years so that is ok, right? But wait, if we keep Orca for another 4,940 years will that become OK too then based upon how long we "imprison" them? Dogs, gotta turn them loose, OH, but again, you don't count them because we've imprisoned them for about 15 to 20k years, so that's ok too, right? Starting to see the hypocrisy yet?

                  So people shouldn't eat fish, chicken, beef, right? Because we imprison and murder those animals and then eat them, right? Not to mention zoos, right? Turn all those animals loose too, or you're a HYPOCRITE. Even the endangered ones and animals that are extinct in the wild. Turn them loose because to keep them in zoos is IMPRISONMENT. Can't have it two ways Timmy, no matter what you extreme animal rights people try to say.

                  Comment


                  • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                    Originally posted by SeaWorldMike View Post
                    Can't have it two ways Timmy, no matter what you extreme animal rights people try to say.
                    "Crackfish", "Hypocrite", "Extreme animal rights".

                    You have been on these boards long enough to see the excellent presentations of both sides of the Blackfish argument on Orca captivity. I trust that you have read and comprehended them and chosen to remain SW steadfast. I am a little disappointed with your steadfast arguments, but I think that is fine. However, I would like you to express your biases for the readers. I have asked this before, I believe, but do not recall if you ever responded. Forgive me if you have.

                    Are you compensated in any manner by SeaWorld for the views you express on these boards? Is Micechat? Being the moderator of the podcast, you are likely indirectly compensated by being afforded access to Sea World personnel for your interviews. Are there others?

                    I found it odd that within days of the Blackfish release, MC was quick to respond with a "pro-Sea World" response. IMO, it seems MC is partial to the SW argument.

                    Thanks for your anticipated disclosure SeaWorld Mike!

                    Comment


                    • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                      Originally posted by kjorgensen43 View Post
                      "Crackfish", "Hypocrite", "Extreme animal rights".

                      You have been on these boards long enough to see the excellent presentations of both sides of the Blackfish argument on Orca captivity. I trust that you have read and comprehended them and chosen to remain SW steadfast. I am a little disappointed with your steadfast arguments, but I think that is fine. However, I would like you to express your biases for the readers. I have asked this before, I believe, but do not recall if you ever responded. Forgive me if you have.

                      Are you compensated in any manner by SeaWorld for the views you express on these boards? Is Micechat? Being the moderator of the podcast, you are likely indirectly compensated by being afforded access to Sea World personnel for your interviews. Are there others?

                      I found it odd that within days of the Blackfish release, MC was quick to respond with a "pro-Sea World" response. IMO, it seems MC is partial to the SW argument.

                      Thanks for your anticipated disclosure SeaWorld Mike!
                      You are disappointed that I stand by an organization that consistently rescues and rehabilitates sea creatures in trouble, causes people to care about our oceans through exposure to denizens of the deep? Well I'm proud to disappoint you then.

                      I am not nor have I ever been anything but a journalist on this subject. Saying SeaWorld "compensates" me by giving access to various personnel for interviews is silly; you then have to say every single journalist who is given access to said personnel for interviews is also being "compensated". Lots of journalists interview SeaWorld employees.

                      Micechat is not compensated by SeaWorld in any way either.

                      As for my bias, well I've never made it secret I'm pro-SeaWorld! I believe in SeaWorld's mission because I recognize what it does for our world's oceans, something I constantly see people dismiss as non-existent or unimportant. There are lots of people jumping on the "let's bash SeaWorld" wagon, but precious few were vocally on the side of SeaWorld before Eric and myself came along.

                      Of course we had a response to Blackfish, nothing mysterious there. We knew all about it long before it premiered. It wasn't a secret. We have investigated with a fine toothed comb every aspect, every person, every so called fact that movie claimed to "expose". Precious few were exposing Blackfish lies! Things like, Samantha Berg, the person featured in the film so much, who claimed to have ridden an Orca - NEVER GOT INTO THE WATER WITH THEM. I know this for a fact, having spoken to people she worked with at the time. She wasn't senior enough to have been doing anything but slopping buckets! But everyone just glosses over the fact that there are absolutely blatant lies in the film, in favor of believing that there is some kind of purposeful evil in what SeaWorld does. I could go on and on.

                      As for Micechat, this site doesn't take a stance. I don't own it, nor do I represent its views. I write what I write, as does Eric, as a journalist and our opinions are our own.

                      Comment


                      • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                        Fair enough SWM. Thank you.

                        Comment


                        • Re: See "Blackfish" before going to SeaWorld

                          I'm an omnivore. Does every animal I eat have a worse life than the performing mammals at Sea World?

                          Just raising the question. :shy:

                          Each Sea World has hundreds of large mammals. Each American city consumes millions of animals each month.

                          "Blackfish" gave me mixed feelings. Though I left the theatre resolved never to go to Sea World, I realized I might not have cared enough to see a movie about orcas had Sea World not taught me to like them.

                          And now I'll get :ot:: Anyone besides me really hate the whipping cows to get whipped cream scenes in both Chocolate Factory movies?

                          And did you hate the truck/cow tipping scene in "Cars"? I'm pretty sure that movie taught some kids what cow tipping is and that a few sleeping cows were knocked over as Cars fans became teens. I grew up in Wisconsin and never knew anyone who ever admitted to tipping a cow or being amused by it.
                          Thanks, Mr. Lasseter. Ironic that a bovine man would be neutral on that being done to cows--I mean cow-like trucks. Yes, the cow-tipping scene in Cars really pi---- me off.

                          And now back to Sea World.

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