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  • #61
    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

    Originally posted by ShelbyH View Post
    Why, because the suggested head scarf was ugly? So are a lot of Disney costumes. This part of the suit really will come down to what is considered reasonable.
    Not because its ugly, but I don't believe what Disney offered was anything like what the employee was asking, and would not have the same meaning for her religious beliefs.

    Just because a company has a uniform code doesn't mean they can willy nilly do what they please. I was at a company for a few years that learned the hard way. Management offered the employee either a position in the back out of customer view (wasn't reasonable) or to wear a head covering that was nothing close to what the religious belief was.

    If police in other countries can wear head coverings without issue, I don't see why a hostess at Disney cannot.

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    • #62
      Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

      I happen to think a bigger and longer bonnet could fulfill the requirement of a headscarf. There are many conservative women who do want to be covered. Bring back the old fashions.

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      • #63
        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

        Originally posted by StevenW View Post
        I happen to think a bigger and longer bonnet could fulfill the requirement of a headscarf. There are many conservative women who do want to be covered. Bring back the old fashions.
        It depends on how religious the person is. For some it may work. For others it may be like my earlier analogy of a Dodger cap and a yarmulke.
        "Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada."

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        • #64
          Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

          I honestly don't think she is going to win because she waited too long to do this.



          "So make the best of this test and don't ask why. It's not a question but a lesson learned in time."- Green Day
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          • #65
            Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

            Originally posted by Retrocool View Post
            Not an American, are ya?
            Let's get off of this topic and focus on what we all love: Disney themed attractions.

            :-)
            Last edited by traumwelt; 08-14-2012, 07:14 PM. Reason: trying to redirect the thread off of this topic.

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            • #66
              Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

              Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
              It depends on how religious the person is. For some it may work. For others it may be like my earlier analogy of a Dodger cap and a yarmulke.
              A baseball cap is not a substitute for a yarmulke although I do notice that some Jews wear one. First, baseball caps are not work attire. It is much too casual. They wouldn't fit in a theme park setting. Second, a yarmulk is a small cap. A formal hat can easily fulfill the requirement like a beret, a fedora, a derby, or a stetson.

              I understand the whole idea of a hijab or Muslim headscarf is to fully cover the head, hair, ear, and neck, leaving the face.

              You will be surprised of all the styles. muslim headscarf - Bing Images

              But a bonnet might do the same, but with a more tailored look, which I prefer. bonnet - Bing Images

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              • #67
                Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                Originally posted by ShelbyH View Post
                I've never seen anyone walking around with a yarmulke even though there are likely devout Jewish men who practice that tradition working there.
                Good point, the orthodox jewish people I know wear their yarmulke everywhere, no problem in the real world, but Disney wants it castmembers not to distract from the show, and that means no personal decorations/styles which draw attention. Until recently, men couldn't have mustaches, and I don't know what the policy on tattoos is, but I wouldn't like seeing tattooed castmembers everywhere.

                Interestingly, this is all part of the assimilation process, two different cultures arguing over seemingly small differences, dress wear, which reveal perhaps fundamental differences in terms of religion. I wonder if the children of the woman will also want to wear hijabs, especially if they see that the vast majority of American women don't wear head scarfs on a daily basis.

                What about other religions? Are Christians allowed to wear golden cross necklaces? What would happen if I showed up to work with an 18-inch jewel encrusted crucifix/cross on my chest? I could see how this might distract from the "show" aspect and irk jews, muslims and other non-christians who I would be serving at the cafe.
                Last edited by chesirecat; 08-14-2012, 03:04 PM.

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                • #68
                  Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                  Originally posted by Slappypunk View Post
                  I honestly don't think she is going to win because she waited too long to do this.
                  She did not "wait too long." See post #27:

                  Originally posted by steamboatpete View Post
                  The reason it took so long is that she cannot file suit in U.S. District Court until the EEOC issues a "right to sue" letter. That letter was just issued, and she is now free to file suit in court.
                  "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                  it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                  together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                  designed to appeal to everyone."

                  - Walt Disney

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                  - Michael Eisner

                  "It's very symbiotic."
                  - Bob Chapek

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                  • #69
                    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                    Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                    What would happen if I showed up to work with an 18-inch jewel encrusted crucifix/cross on my chest?
                    So, by comparing a simple white headscarf to an oversized, loud, ostentatious crucifix rather than the commonly worn 1 inch cross on a chain you're saying that hijabs are an over the top, outrageous, unreasonable expression of faith?

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by StevenW View Post
                      Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
                      It depends on how religious the person is. For some it may work. For others it may be like my earlier analogy of a Dodger cap and a yarmulke.
                      A baseball cap is not a substitute for a yarmulke although I do notice that some Jews wear one.
                      That's true. Again it depends on how religious they are. I have known a few to wear a ball cap on Shabbat before temple, but switch to the more formal when it is time to go to services. Then there are others who will only wear a yarmulke and settle for nothing less.

                      The plaintiff in this case would appear to be very religious, so I don't think the bonnet idea would satisfy her.
                      "Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                        Originally posted by jsmith11618 View Post
                        Not because its ugly, but I don't believe what Disney offered was anything like what the employee was asking, and would not have the same meaning for her religious beliefs.

                        Just because a company has a uniform code doesn't mean they can willy nilly do what they please. I was at a company for a few years that learned the hard way. Management offered the employee either a position in the back out of customer view (wasn't reasonable) or to wear a head covering that was nothing close to what the religious belief was.

                        If police in other countries can wear head coverings without issue, I don't see why a hostess at Disney cannot.
                        Not sure what bearing police in other countries has on the issue. Obviously, in a predominantly muslim country like Saudi Arabia, they make the women wear a head scarf, and I think women who don't like this edict wear a more fashionable head scarf, maybe with some color, and sometimes get citations from the "fashion police" or whoever is in charge of enforcement if they "go too far."

                        In America, you have the right to wear what you want in public. But private companies are a different deal, I knew somebody who was fired from a movie theatre for wearing black corduroy jeans instead of standard black jeans without the ridges, he was fired. But he was also rebellious, and a poor worker. Note that this wasn't a religious issue.

                        In any corporation, anybody who doesn't conform and puts themselves and their personal style ahead of the company sticks out like sore thumb and gets fired. Every religion has their own special dress, priests, choir boys, judaism, muslim . . . but in the U.S. wearing these clothes outside of a religious institution is frowned upon as there are just so many religions in the United States, with some exceptions such as the yarmulke, though I am sure some folks with anti-semite leanings might not like the yarmulke and feel it is too "clannish" or "tribal" like, a way to identify with others at the temple and not your gentile co-wokers and such, and I have heard such comments.

                        Displaying personal attire that clearly announces your religion is a tricky subject.

                        In Saudi Arabia it is not so much a problem as women have to wear the hijab, even foreign female journalists have to do this if they want to talk to the royalty there and do interviews. I feel sorry for women from these countries who are used to covering up, and then enter a country where this is not the law. If must feel immodest to go without the head scarf. I'm glad Disney did offer a bonnett that covers up just as much of the face as the hijab, but the woman was clearly attached to her own hijab and probably didn't like the Mickey Mouse made hijab.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                          Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                          Every religion has their own special dress, priests, choir boys, judaism, muslim . . . but in the U.S. wearing these clothes outside of a religious institution is frowned upon as there are just so many religions in the United States, with some exceptions such as the yarmulke, though I am sure some folks with anti-semite leanings might not like the yarmulke and feel it is too "clannish" or "tribal" like, a way to identify with others at the temple and not your gentile co-wokers and such, and I have heard such comments.
                          The hijab should be in the same category as your stated exception of the yarmulke. I'm sure jewish fok had an issue with being allowed at points in time and had to sue to have their rights protected, just like this young lady.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                            Originally posted by OliviaVonDrake View Post
                            So, by comparing a simple white headscarf to an oversized, loud, ostentatious crucifix rather than the commonly worn 1 inch cross on a chain you're saying that hijabs are an over the top, outrageous, unreasonable expression of faith?
                            Not at all, but when looking at the law, they need to make sure that the law is fairly applied to all religions. I personally don't find hijabs offensive, but seeing a personal wearing one leads me to conclude that they are muslim, similar to how golden crosses on necklaces would make me identify somebody as Christian. I was just making up an extreme for the legal argument, no offense noted.

                            Maybe in terms of visual space, a Hijab is the same as a regular sized golden cross necklace displayed on the outside of the clothing, and the 18 inch golden cross equals the full body covering that some women in foreign countries wear.

                            Nonetheless, the thing that all religiously associated clothing and jewelry have in common is that they are making a bold statement about a person's religion, and it can be distracting. I think private corporations have the right to dress their employees however they want, and can rightfully ban mustaches, and even hijabs, golden crosses, and what not. That Disney made accommodations for this person was a "nice" thing to do, but was this required by law?

                            ---------- Post added 08-14-2012 at 11:40 PM ----------

                            Originally posted by Juni View Post
                            The hijab should be in the same category as your stated exception of the yarmulke. I'm sure jewish fok had an issue with being allowed at points in time and had to sue to have their rights protected, just like this young lady.
                            I just meant that with time the Yarmulke has become more accepted, Jewish people have been in the US a long time, and in greater numbers previously than muslims, YET the Yarmulke may become less popular as Jews inevitably become assimilated.

                            I've known a lot of women who wear the hijab, all smart nice people, but I doubt most guests at Disneyland have this experience.
                            Last edited by chesirecat; 08-14-2012, 03:42 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                              Originally posted by steamboatpete View Post
                              It does matter. As a matter of law, it matters. Wearing religious attire is a statutory exception to everything you asserted in this post.
                              Not always. Reasonable accommodation has to be made, but an employee does not have free rein to wear whatever they want at work on religious grounds. The employer still has the right to decide what can and cannot be worn at work, and employers have won lawsuits from employees who have challenged their dress codes on religious grounds. Some cases are mentioned here, including one of a Sikh man who sued Chevron in California because they required him to be clean-shaven. He lost the case.

                              At Disney, where they provided the woman with alternatives that would have allowed her to cover her head as required, this is more about dress code violation than anything else.

                              www.njsbf.org/images/content/1/1/11345/respect_winter10_final.pdf
                              Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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                              • #75
                                Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                Originally posted by Malina View Post
                                Not always. The employer still has the right to decide what can and cannot be worn at work, and employers have won lawsuits from employees who have challenged their dress codes on religious grounds. Some cases are mentioned here, including one of a Sikh man who sued Chevron in California because they required him to be clean-shaven. He lost the case. At Disney, where they provided the woman with alternatives that would have allowed her to cover her head as required, this is more about dress code violation than anything else.

                                www.njsbf.org/images/content/1/1/11345/respect_winter10_final.pdf
                                The bonnett that Disney provided did cover up everything but her face, and if the Koran just describes how much should be covered up, not with what, then this should be acceptable. If it was a modesty issue (some hijab wearing women have modesty issues as they grew up wearing this dress), then the Disney bonnett should have served this purpose.

                                The non-Disney hijab does more than satisfy religious issues (which it probably does), but it also advertises an individuality removed from the company, and looks more like a dress code issue.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                  Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                  Good point, the orthodox jewish people I know wear their yarmulke everywhere, no problem in the real world, but Disney wants it castmembers not to distract from the show, and that means no personal decorations/styles which draw attention.
                                  A yarmulke is something that could ostensibly be covered under a hat--since a lot of roles have those. Also, I know someone who always wears a yarmulke that is the same color as his hair, so it's practically invisible. He says that he does it because it's there for him, not for anyone else.

                                  Similarly, if an Orthodox Jewish woman needed to keep her head covered, a lot of roles have costumes that would allow that. But it would be the same thing, I'm sure, that she would have to wear the provided costume and not bring her own scarf or hat from home.
                                  Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                    Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                    Displaying personal attire that clearly announces your religion is a tricky subject.
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                                    • #78
                                      Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                      Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                      YET the Yarmulke may become less popular as Jews inevitably become assimilated.
                                      What.

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                                      • #79
                                        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                        Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                        The bonnett that Disney provided did cover up everything but her face, and if the Koran just describes how much should be covered up, not with what, then this should be acceptable. If it was a modesty issue (some hijab wearing women have modesty issues as they grew up wearing this dress), then the Disney bonnett should have served this purpose.

                                        The non-Disney hijab does more than satisfy religious issues (which it probably does), but it also advertises an individuality removed from the company, and looks more like a dress code issue.
                                        Yup. There's a huge range of different ways that hijab is worn--some cover head and neck, but if you go to some places you'll see girls wearing hijab of fashion scarves tied over their heads. It looks like Ms. B wanted to cover her head and neck and hide her hair, and the Disney designed hijab does accomplish that.

                                        Also, the costume Disney provided is very similar to uniforms worn by women who are observant Muslims in other jobs, such as Emirates Airlines:

                                        http://content.emirates.com/uk/engli...275-686337.jpg
                                        Last edited by Malina; 08-14-2012, 04:01 PM.
                                        Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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                                        • #80
                                          Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                          Originally posted by Malina View Post
                                          A yarmulke is something that could ostensibly be covered under a hat--since a lot of roles have those. Also, I know someone who always wears a yarmulke that is the same color as his hair, so it's practically invisible. He says that he does it because it's there for him, not for anyone else.

                                          Similarly, if an Orthodox Jewish woman needed to keep her head covered, a lot of roles have costumes that would allow that. But it would be the same thing, I'm sure, that she would have to wear the provided costume and not bring her own scarf or hat from home.
                                          Yeah, I've seen a lot of Yarmulkes which are very close to hair and most people would miss them. Its a good point that people wear Yarmulkes and hijabs for themselves, though I can't help but think that in biblical times, such clothing was worn in part to differentiate the religions.

                                          ---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 12:02 AM ----------

                                          Originally posted by OliviaVonDrake View Post
                                          What.
                                          I would assume that in thousands of years the United States will become more of a melting pot, and skin colors may become more similar due to more assimilation, and various religion could perhaps even become one religion, with various understandings and such.

                                          I'm not jewish, but was under the impression that jews were inter-marrying at much higher rates than in past decades during which marrying into the faith was vital to preserving the religion. I think the 1960s it was like 90% intermarriage rates for the Jews, and now it is much less, less than 50%. Of course, Haredi jews are growing in number, but I thought they wear even more modest clothing, i.e. black hats and not Yarmulkes, though if I am mistaken then I apologize.

                                          Also, a certain percentage of Jews may want to continue practicing a form of Judaism like reform, but may end the tradition of the Yarmulke just as a side effect of living in a very homogenous society. Similar things happened with Christianity, as the early colonists were assimilated, puritanical ideals were softened by pragmatism.
                                          Last edited by chesirecat; 08-14-2012, 04:06 PM.

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