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  • #81
    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

    Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
    I'm not jewish, but was under the impression that jews were inter-marrying at much higher rates than in past decades during which marrying into the faith was vital to preserving the religion. I think the 1960s it was like 90% intermarriage rates for the Jews, and now it is much less, less than 50%. Of course, Haredi jews are growing in number, but I thought they wear even more modest clothing, i.e. black hats and not Yarmulkes, though if I am mistaken then I apologize.Also, a certain percentage of Jews may want to continue practicing a form of Judaism like reform, but may end the tradition of the Yarmulke just as a side effect of living in a very homogenous society.
    Being Jewish is also a cultural identity as well as a religious one, and some choose to celebrate the former and not the latter -- so regardless of intermarriage that does hang on. At my friend's temple, some men wear yarmulkes to services and on holidays, and not other times -- the same way someone might wear a formal hat to church but not to work--so it is preserved as a religious tradition but not one that is necessary 24/7. And there are so so many variations and groups within Judaism that what one group does has no reflection on the others a lot of the time. Hasidic and other ultra-Orthodox groups (who have those black hats) are the ones who tend to frown on intermarriage.
    Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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    • #82
      Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

      Originally posted by Malina View Post
      Yup. There's a huge range of different ways that hijab is worn--some cover head and neck, but if you go to some places you'll see girls wearing hijab of fashion scarves tied over their heads. It looks like Ms. B wanted to cover her head and neck and hide her hair, and the Disney designed hijab does accomplish that.

      Also, the costume Disney provided is very similar to uniforms worn by women who are observant Muslims in other jobs, such as Emirates Airlines:

      http://content.emirates.com/uk/engli...275-686337.jpg

      You realize Emirates hires a large amount of flight attendants who are not Muslim and not from the middle east at all, a good portion of their flight attendants are from Europe and North America.

      Can't really compare since there is a good chance the flight attendant isn't Muslim hence the less conservative look the airline has chosen.

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      • #83
        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

        Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
        The law protects you from discrimination based on your religion - with the purpose of there should be no need or fear of having your religion known. The purpose is you shouldn't have to hide your religion, nor should you be discriminated against for it or refrained from practicing it.
        Yes. Absolutely. Nobody should be fired, hired or discriminated against due to their religious beliefs. Everyone should feel free to have their own personal spiritual practices.

        However--IMHO that should not mean that one's personal beliefs should come at the expense of others, and in a professional setting, if one's beliefs interfere with one's ability to do their job, or becomes disruptive, it might require an either-or choice. I don't think employers should have to fundamentally change what they do to accommodate personal religious beliefs.

        It might need to be a choice on the part of the employee to find a job that is more likely to jive with their beliefs.
        If you're Hindu, maybe you don't want to go work at a beef slaughterhouse. If you're conservative Muslim, Jewish or Christian and you need to cover up, maybe you don't want to work at Hooters. If you're a Jehovah's Witness you don't go work at a blood bank. And if your religious practice requires you to wear your own specific items of clothing rather than company issued ones --whether that is a hat, hijab, a skirt, or whatever-- maybe you need to find a job that doesn't have a very clear and very strict dress code that requires costumes.
        Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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        • #84
          Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

          Originally posted by jsmith11618 View Post
          You realize Emirates hires a large amount of flight attendants who are not Muslim and not from the middle east at all, a good portion of their flight attendants are from Europe and North America.

          Can't really compare since there is a good chance the flight attendant isn't Muslim hence the less conservative look the airline has chosen.
          True. Here's a better example of company-issued hijab: covering the head and neck, modest sleeves, but part of the uniform. It also has a hat on top, like the hijab that Disney wanted Ms B to wear.

          2959874857_c3f79a48df.jpg
          Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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          • #85
            Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

            Originally posted by Malina View Post
            Being Jewish is also a cultural identity as well as a religious one, and some choose to celebrate the former and not the latter -- so regardless of intermarriage that does hang on.
            I was thinking more of the issue of inter-faith marriages, as there are more gentiles than Jews in the United States. An inter-faith couple, say one Jewish and one Christian, maybe 50% of the time would actually pass on the tradition of the Yarmulke and going to temple to their children. Then in the next generation, you would have a 50% whittling, assuming far fewer intermarriages. I am, of course, assuming that 99% of those who wear the Yarmulke also practice Judaism in some small respect, even if it is just going to the temple for the major holidays and such.

            Jewish fertility rates are also pretty low, so there is definitely a demographic "crunch". Most articles I've read say that the Jewish population in the U.S. will become markedly more ultra-orthodox in the future due to assimilation, hence more black hats and less Yarmulkes, a trend that is also happening in Israel I believe.

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            • #86
              Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

              Originally posted by Malina View Post
              True. Here's a better example of company-issued hijab: covering the head and neck, modest sleeves, but part of the uniform. It also has a hat on top, like the hijab that Disney wanted Ms B to wear.

              [ATTACH=CONFIG]23103[/ATTACH]
              But here the hat is already part of the uniform. It is not there to cover up or disguise the hijab in order to placate bigots and midwestern tourists who may find the sight of a Muslim headscarf "spooky".

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              • #87
                Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                Originally posted by jsmith11618 View Post
                Not because its ugly, but I don't believe what Disney offered was anything like what the employee was asking, and would not have the same meaning for her religious beliefs.
                I am still looking for the various options that were offered. I remember there were 3 offered. Interestingly enough, there are a couple others who do work at Disneyland and do wear the offered hijab for their area. (They vary depending on the land.)

                And Disney has a very strict dress code. (Heck, they even limit the color options of nail polish, and it is checked...) This actually fortifies their case.
                If you see a cute yellow lab puppy with a yellow cape, WAVE! It might be us! (Or it may be someone else that lurks here!) Thank you for asking before you pet! Next trip, Dec 22-Jan 3rd.

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                • #88
                  Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                  Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                  I was thinking more of the issue of inter-faith marriages, as there are more gentiles than Jews in the United States. An inter-faith couple, say one Jewish and one Christian, maybe 50% of the time would actually pass on the tradition of the Yarmulke and going to temple to their children. Then in the next generation, you would have a 50% whittling, assuming far fewer intermarriages. I am, of course, assuming that 99% of those who wear the Yarmulke also practice Judaism in some small respect, even if it is just going to the temple for the major holidays and such.

                  Jewish fertility rates are also pretty low, so there is definitely a demographic "crunch". Most articles I've read say that the Jewish population in the U.S. will become markedly more ultra-orthodox in the future due to assimilation, hence more black hats and less Yarmulkes, a trend that is also happening in Israel I believe.
                  Someone who chose to wear a yarmulke all the time would probably have a higher chance of marrying another Jew, to start. If you're wearing a yarmulke/kippah outside the synagogue you're observant and probably have a vested interest in marrying someone who shares your faith and level of commitment to it.

                  Oh, and just so you know, there IS also a yarmulke under the black hat. It's not one or the other.

                  My family is actually interfaith at my grandparents' level, so that's what I was speaking of, too. There are plenty of interfaith families who celebrate both religions, or send the kids up through Hebrew school to bar/bat mitzvah and then let them choose. And even families that never set foot in the synagogue all year round might want a Jewish wedding or funeral, or celebrate Hanukkah, much in the same way some people identify as Christians but really only observe it in terms of holidays, weddings or funerals. However--even in such families, you will still see them pass on a lot of Jewish traditions, such as recipes and ways of doing things, even if they don't realize it. I grew up with a Yiddish/Hebrew vocabulary, for instance, regardless of the fact that my grandfather was never an observant Jew and neither my mother nor I were raised Jewish, because those words were in the house.

                  Judaism is seeing the same trend that we see in a lot of other religions, where those who are very devout are hanging on and trying to increase their numbers -- and they tend to be the most visible and vocal-- and those who are less devout are breaking away, see it as a choice, and not an obligation, to be religious or not, and still hang on to some of the traditions. Much in the same way we're seeing a lot more vocal conservative Christians, but a lot less people overall going to church.

                  Anyway. Off topic. Moving on.

                  ---------- Post added 08-14-2012 at 05:59 PM ----------

                  Originally posted by OliviaVonDrake View Post
                  But here the hat is already part of the uniform. It is not there to cover up or disguise the hijab in order to placate bigots and midwestern tourists who may find the sight of a Muslim headscarf "spooky".
                  But was the hat in Disney's case really meant to cover up the hijab or to fit in with the theme of the restaurant better? That's a matter of opinion. Especially since they kept trying to offer her different options, I'd be inclined to believe the latter. There's a lot of discrimination and ignorance directed toward American Muslims, but I can't believe that asking someone to adhere to a dress code is an attempt to hide their religion.
                  Last edited by Malina; 08-14-2012, 06:16 PM.
                  Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                    Originally posted by Malina View Post
                    But was the hat in Disney's case really meant to cover up the hijab or to fit in with the theme of the restaurant better? That's a matter of opinion. Especially since they kept trying to offer her different options, I'd be inclined to believe the latter.
                    In the original article back in 2009(?) there were 3 options. When the same hajib with hat was modeled by ANOTHER Muslim woman, it looked MUCH better than the way Ms. Boudial wore it. There are at least 2 other Muslim women who are wearing the Disney approved options currently.
                    If you see a cute yellow lab puppy with a yellow cape, WAVE! It might be us! (Or it may be someone else that lurks here!) Thank you for asking before you pet! Next trip, Dec 22-Jan 3rd.

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                    • #90
                      Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                      Originally posted by Malina View Post
                      But was the hat in Disney's case really meant to cover up the hijab or to fit in with the theme of the restaurant better? That's a matter of opinion. Especially since they kept trying to offer her different options, I'd be inclined to believe the latter.
                      This may well have been Disney's intention, but they must know that going to such lengths to hide or disguise the hijab is going to reflect badly on them. I can't really see how either of the Disney designed scarf/hat combinations are any more theme appropriate than a plain white scarf.

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                      • #91
                        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                        Originally posted by Malina View Post

                        Oh, and just so you know, there IS also a yarmulke under the black hat. It's not one or the other.
                        Wow, that's a cool fact! I know that the ultra-conservative wear clothes that are black as flashy colors are seen as less reverent, had no idea there was a Yarmulke under there.

                        ---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 01:13 AM ----------

                        Originally posted by Malina View Post

                        Judaism is seeing the same trend that we see in a lot of other religions, where those who are very devout are hanging on and trying to increase their numbers --
                        Interestingly, there was an article published not too long ago which found a correlation between "religiosity" and fertility rates. Without a doubt, a lot of very religious populations are booming, and not necessarily because the Hebrew Bible says go forth and reproduce . . . Hasidic families are HUGE, they have like six kids or something, on average, and start having families pretty early. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the ultra-conservative Jewish populations in the US, I take it that the men spend a lot of time studying the Talmud and other Jewish religious books, the women work and sort of support the men in some cases, and there are big problems with poverty. The Amish has stuck around for a long time, no doubt the Hasidic jews will as well.

                        ---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 01:20 AM ----------

                        Originally posted by Malina View Post
                        However--even in such families, you will still see them pass on a lot of Jewish traditions, such as recipes and ways of doing things, even if they don't realize it. I grew up with a Yiddish/Hebrew vocabulary, for instance, regardless of the fact that my grandfather was never an observant Jew and neither my mother nor I were raised Jewish, because those words were in the house.

                        But was the hat in Disney's case really meant to cover up the hijab or to fit in with the theme of the restaurant better? That's a matter of opinion. Especially since they kept trying to offer her different options, I'd be inclined to believe the latter.
                        Being a Disney fan . . . I kinda also think the later, that Disney, being Disney, wants everything to look a particular way, and they did make a bonnet which fit the overall theme. They did ban mustaches and stuff like for decades, far longer than most other private companies.
                        Last edited by chesirecat; 08-14-2012, 06:23 PM.

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                        • #92
                          Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                          OK.... so if the woman demanded to wear the Niqab (which covers the entire head with only a slit for a woman's eyes to see through) instead of the Hijab (which is merely a head covering) for religious reasons, would Disney have to accommodate her religious convictions?

                          Or perhaps a server in a restaurant would be required to serve alcohol, or handle pork or shellfish - which a clearly prohibited by the Koran, would Disney have to accommodate that demand?

                          Or perhaps a male Sikh employee would demand to wear their turban (within which they are traditionally supposed to carry a dagger....), would Disney have to accommodate THAT? Maybe they'd just put them in "attractions" and post them in Adventureland.......

                          Besides, there is significant argument whether the Hijab is even required under the Koran, or if it was merely a cultural emulation of the wives of the Prophet Muhammed.

                          Per Wikipedia: "Hijab"...... sorry, couldn't paste the link, just "Wikipedia" it.....

                          So the plaintiff is making a subjective interpretation of Islamic teaching by demanding Disney "accommodate" a religious concept that is not universally accepted within Islam itself?

                          But I would imagine, since Disney is full of lawyers anyway, they'll find a way to prevail....

                          But this case is ridiculous, I admire one's freedom of religion as much as anyone, it's one of our most basic rights, but I object to the demand that the plaintiff makes, Disney has made what I consider to be a "reasonable" accommodation, which is what they are required to do under the law, it was only unsatisfactory to the plaintiff.

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                          • #93
                            Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                            Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                            The law, and what is protected has nothing to do with announcing your religion. You can't argue that a T-shirt that says 'christian and proud of it' would be protected. Which is also why your 18" cross example is a bit off the mark.

                            Her clothing is included because what she is trying to wear is part of their religious beliefs on how women are supposed to be covered - not any right to advertise or promote her religion.

                            The law protects you from discrimination based on your religion - with the purpose of there should be no need or fear of having your religion known. The purpose is you shouldn't have to hide your religion, nor should you be discriminated against for it or refrained from practicing it.
                            Certainly, in public, you can wear a t-shirt that says just about anything, including "Christian and Proud" or "Muslim and Proud" or "Jewish and Proud".

                            But the issue is in a private setting, I can't go to work for McDonalds and say that I have to be allowed to wear a t-shirt that says "Christian and Proud", every day, over my uniform. I would be fired.

                            In fact, some devout Christians might want to wear a golden cross necklace everyday, but the manager at McDonalds might inform them that there is policy against jewelry. So, yes, in some clear instances a private institution can certainly make you "hide" your religion. What size cross is too big? Three inches? Four inches?

                            Similarly, I can't inform every McDonalds customer that their value meal is unhealthy, and that I am protected under "Freedom of Speech" so I can't be fired. I would be fired.

                            There are issues with devout Muslims who feel they have the need to pray hourly, but if this prevents them from doing their job . . . I think there was some sort of legal case involving this, do you have a right to practice your religion on the job?

                            ---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 01:45 AM ----------

                            Originally posted by sdjeff4sc View Post
                            OK.... so if the woman demanded to wear the Niqab (which covers the entire head with only a slit for a woman's eyes to see through) instead of the Hijab (which is merely a head covering) for religious reasons, would Disney have to accommodate her religious convictions?

                            Or perhaps a server in a restaurant would be required to serve alcohol, or handle pork or shellfish - which a clearly prohibited by the Koran, would Disney have to accommodate that demand?

                            Or perhaps a male Sikh employee would demand to wear their turban (within which they are traditionally supposed to carry a dagger....), would Disney have to accommodate THAT? Maybe they'd just put them in "attractions" and post them in Adventureland.......

                            Besides, there is significant argument whether the Hijab is even required under the Koran, or if it was merely a cultural emulation of the wives of the Prophet Muhammed.

                            Per Wikipedia: "Hijab"...... sorry, couldn't paste the link, just "Wikipedia" it.....

                            So the plaintiff is making a subjective interpretation of Islamic teaching by demanding Disney "accommodate" a religious concept that is not universally accepted within Islam itself?

                            But I would imagine, since Disney is full of lawyers anyway, they'll find a way to prevail....

                            But this case is ridiculous, I admire one's freedom of religion as much as anyone, it's one of our most basic rights, but I object to the demand that the plaintiff makes, Disney has made what I consider to be a "reasonable" accommodation, which is what they are required to do under the law, it was only unsatisfactory to the plaintiff.
                            Wow, those are some really thought provoking questions.

                            The Nigab really attracts attention in a western country, such as the United States, were women are required to cover themselves like that. Also, a castmember wearing a Nigab would be hard to identify as a castmember, as a company, Disney needs to have a castmember uniform so that the public can readily identify who works for the company. Even if the Nigab was made with a Mickey Mouse pattern, most guests would assume it was somebody dressed up.

                            Disney could offer that the women wear an "Oogie Boogie" costume with the eye slit in the mouth, but would they accept?

                            ---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 01:53 AM ----------

                            Originally posted by Malina View Post
                            True. Here's a better example of company-issued hijab: covering the head and neck, modest sleeves, but part of the uniform. It also has a hat on top, like the hijab that Disney wanted Ms B to wear.

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]23103[/ATTACH]
                            I would want to eat at this McDonalds over others as these hijabs prevent hairs from falling into the hamburgers, something which has happened to me on occassion.
                            Last edited by chesirecat; 08-14-2012, 06:47 PM.

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                            • #94
                              Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                              MOD NOTE:

                              Folks,

                              Going to ask that you all get this thread on topic or we are going to have to move it like we had the last one.

                              This is the only warning you are going to get.

                              Thanks

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                Let's get off this topic and talk about something else :-)
                                Last edited by traumwelt; 08-14-2012, 08:10 PM. Reason: We have gotten off topic.

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                                • #96
                                  Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                  Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                  Certainly, in public, you can wear a t-shirt that says just about anything, including "Christian and Proud" or "Muslim and Proud" or "Jewish and Proud".

                                  But the issue is in a private setting, I can't go to work for McDonalds and say that I have to be allowed to wear a t-shirt that says "Christian and Proud", every day, over my uniform. I would be fired.
                                  I'm afraid you completely missed his point. The point was that wearing such a t-shirt is NOT comparable to this situation just as wearing a giant crucifix is not comparable.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                    So, this woman decides to takes a job that requires all "cast members" to wear a specific, themed costume as a requirement of employment at Disneyland. She then decides to change her religous commitment and desires to wear a Hijab in public. She informs Disney of her decision and her new requirement to wear a Hijab while at work. Disney offers her several "themed appropriate" head coverings, all of which she rejects. Disney offers this woman other employment oppurtunities that would accomodate her decision to wear her Hijab and also maintain Disneys "cast member" theme continuity. She decides that Disney is being unreasonable. This woman has made a series of decisions, decisions that she is accountable for; but it's Disneys fault!

                                    I hope she fails and she and her lawyer get zip, zero, nadda...

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                      Originally posted by disneyhound View Post
                                      So, this woman decides to takes a job that requires all "cast members" to wear a specific, themed costume as a requirement of employment at Disneyland. She then decides to change her religous commitment and desires to wear a Hijab in public. She informs Disney of her decision and her new requirement to wear a Hijab while at work. Disney offers her several "themed appropriate" head coverings, all of which she rejects. Disney offers this woman other employment oppurtunities that would accomodate her decision to wear her Hijab and also maintain Disneys "cast member" theme continuity. She decides that Disney is being unreasonable. This woman has made a series of decisions, decisions that she is accountable for; but it's Disneys fault!

                                      I hope she fails and she and her lawyer get zip, zero, nadda...
                                      My question is why the plain white headscarf is not considered theme appropriate.

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                                      • #99
                                        Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                        Never heard this one before... no wait I have... like many times... (rambling goes on...)

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                                        • Re: Former Disneyland Worker sues Disney

                                          Originally posted by OliviaVonDrake View Post
                                          My question is why the plain white headscarf is not considered theme appropriate.
                                          Maybe at Knotts or your local County Fair, but not Disneyland.

                                          Comment

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