White smoke...bells...A NEW POPE!!!

[Disneykat]

Simply put, any group whose dogma includes core beliefs of hatred, intolerance, and inequality is a hate group in my eyes.

Your definition may differ. If you don't like mine, well, refute it rationally, or move on.

There are alot of anti-Catholic groups out there. People hate what they don't understand. No one says to you have to agree, or embrace it, but don't hate specific groups because you don't agree with their teachings. I don't agree with a few teachings of some Christian churches, but you don't see me trashing them now do you???

[dramaqueen]

Also, unless you have met all 1 billion + plus catholics in the world, don't call them hate mongers. If you truly believe that the church teaches hate then you don't know much about it. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and then maybe you will be informed enough about what the church teaches to pass judgement on it. I don't agree with everything the Church teaches either, but that is my issue and I don't feel the need to tell the whole world about it.

It sounds like you have had a bad run in with the church. I apologize if you did, but don't judge a billion people based on a few.

To quote a great man- "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" well a great rabbit anyways.

There was no reason for you to add that sentiment to a perfectly civilized thread. You it far more personal than it needed to be.

[Flint]

It sounds like you have had a bad run in with the church. I apologize if you did, but don't judge a billion people based on a few.

No, thankfully, I have not had to deal with the Church. I have, however, had to deal with many people who have had their lives destroyed by it. This rather colors my opinion.

To quote a great man- "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" well a great rabbit anyways.

Oft spoken words by those who wish to quash actual discussion of an issue... rather Pollyanna-ish yet sinister. Kind of like "won't someone think of the CHILDREN???"

*shrug* As I said, if you don't like my opinion, refute it rationally or move on. I'm not about to spend my time worrying about if every post I make will spread sunshine and rainbows. Life's not like that, and neither am I. I have to deal with more than enough "ME-TOO!" people in real life. Discussion does NOT mean "we all agree on this," it means "we all have opinions on this," even if that opinion is "I have no opinion of this."

[ah schucks]

No, thankfully, I have not had to deal with the Church. I have, however, had to deal with many people who have had their lives destroyed by it. This rather colors my opinion.

Who? Define please. I have meet far more whose lives have been saved and not just in a spirtual sense.

Oft spoken words by those who wish to quash actual discussion of an issue... rather Pollyanna-ish yet sinister. Kind of like "won't someone think of the CHILDREN???"

As if thinking like a child is a bad thing? Too often we focus on pessmism through tantrums like a raving child- thats being childish! Being child-like is being open to the possibility that this pope might like John Paul II do great things for a great many people. Child-like is open to wonder and awe that exists in the world- a quality too few adults posses.

*shrug* As I said, if you don't like my opinion, refute it rationally or move on. I'm not about to spend my time worrying about if every post I make will spread sunshine and rainbows. Life's not like that, and neither am I. I have to deal with more than enough "ME-TOO!" people in real life. Discussion does NOT mean "we all agree on this," it means "we all have opinions on this," even if that opinion is "I have no opinion of this."

You picked the wrong forum and the wrong day to pick on Catholiscm- see I was feeling pretty snippy today, ask anyone who read my posts. I guess that what happens when you sink a bunch of money into your car.

Simply put, any group whose dogma includes core beliefs of hatred, intolerance, and inequality is a hate group in my eyes.

Provide me with the evidence that the dogma and core belief support hatred, intolerance and inequality! I would like to see you quote the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch book if possible otherwise it speculative in nature.

I find it startling to run into people who think this of the Catholic church at present. Setting aside well documented history of abuse and scandal prior to Vatican II, I see no evidence to suggest the Catholic church is any more hateful than any other Christian or religious organization.

The Catholic church supports more missionary work in more countries than any other organization on the planet. How can you suggest that it is hateful?

You picked the wrong day, month and year to confront Catholics about there faith. I respect your ability to carry an opinion but I do not believe this is the proper forum or place.

[dramaqueen]

I agree with Tom that this is not the proper forum for this type of discussion. There are plenty of religious boards out there where this discussion would be more appropriate. I worked in youth ministry for five years and have had more religious discussions that I can count, I do not shy away from them! I just don't feel this is the appropriate place for that to happen. A discussion in a chat room or over IM would be a different story, but religion is too personal a topic of discussion for these forums.

Your posts on this matter just seem to be awfully judgemental of people you have never met, including many posters on this boards.

Just in my opinion.

[ZedIzDead]

[Flint]

I don't have time for a long reply this morning before work, but I just wanted to point this out:

I see no evidence to suggest the Catholic church is any more hateful than any other Christian or religious organization.

You said it, not me! :lol:


And a final word to the "this is not an appropriate place for this" crowd:
If it's an appropriate place for the news, then it's an appropriate place for discussion of it. Stop beating around and bush and just admit that you only want to discuss things you deem positive. It's been very clear that as soon as someone counters your opinions you play the "this is not an appropriate place to discuss that" card. I find that intellectually dishonest and childish.

If you want to espouse your opinions with no risk of actual discussion or challenging of them, I'd suggest you try a LiveJournal or a blog.

[ah schucks]

And a final word to the "this is not an appropriate place for this" crowd:
If it's an appropriate place for the news, then it's an appropriate place for discussion of it. Stop beating around and bush and just admit that you only want to discuss things you deem positive. It's been very clear that as soon as someone counters your opinions you play the "this is not an appropriate place to discuss that" card. I find that intellectually dishonest and childish.

If you want to espouse your opinions with no risk of actual discussion or challenging of them, I'd suggest you try a LiveJournal or a blog.

If this were an event where the policy of the Catholic church was been altered I would agree that it is the time and place, but a man just died, ease up on the bashing. What I find intellectually dishonest is people who use the recent death of a good, even a great man as a launching platform for there negative comments! Opinion which bare no merit in this forum. I and those of who are watching this moment in history are simply saying let us have our moment without the anti-Catholic retortic, there are other places you can spew that kind of thing.

I will glady debate you and discuss this but this is not the time and place.

[Disneykat]

I have, however, had to deal with many people who have had their lives destroyed by it. This rather colors my opinion.

I've been hurt by Mormons...actually my dad was but I don't hate them. Do you see the silliness of that statement???

[LSPoorEeyorick]

A question for the moderators:

Are we not allowed to debate politics or religion?

Because there comes a time in every fandom board's life that the members become interested enough in each other as people in and outside of the fandom topic that other subjects become more interesting to discuss than the original one. I've seen this happen at a LOT of different boards.

I'd say the DL forum is not a place for such discussion, but I thought the lounge was a place where anything within reason could be a topic of conversation.

[Nephythys]

I was under the impression that we could discuss and debate- although now that I think of it, Dusty did say this is not a political board- not sure how they feel about religion. I would like to see the answer.

I just feel like certain parties have added so much hostility to this discussion already it is hard to continue.....

[dramaqueen]

I feel the same way Neph, I hope I have not added to that hostility, I have tried to be tactful. I would love to discuss it, but I just cannot see how it would not turn ugly and personal. I love a good debate and have no problem having an intelligent discussion with someone I don't agree with, but somehow, I don't see that happening on this topic.

[TinkPink]

I agree with you DQ. Not only that, but I consider many people here at MC to be my friends (or virtual friends?) and I wouldn't want to alienate any of you if you disgree with me. I would prefer to discuss religion with people who I wouldn't care if I ever talked to again, and I don't feel that way about most people here!

Nothing like a good religious debate to piss people off!!

(is that considered cussing here at MC? I have been curious where the lines are)

[Nephythys]

I was being specific without naming names-but I think everyone knows what I mean. You can not carry on a meaningful debate when you dismiss the opposing view as being part of a hate group.

A debate is one thing- and we can learn something from it, but the interjection of obvious disrespect and the setting of people on the defensive and dismissing their arguments has ruined the notion.

[Alan]

It seems funny to be a non participant in a free for all like this turned out to be.

[MickeyMania]

I would like to say that I am really getting tired of the "This isn't the place for this conversation" cowardice being displayed by those who feel persecuted against but don't want to actually defend their positions for fear of some sort of reprisal or backlash.

This is not some theme park thread, this is general discussion and if a post makes you feel uncomfortable but isn't targeting you directly, then get out of the kitchen.

I am tired of "this is a Disney board so let's keep it sacred and not discuss this issue" or "I would respond to your issue but it would contain so much profanity so I think that I won't" posts like the ones demonstrated by this thread. Someone even suggested that the discussion should go to a religion message board. Like complaints about the Church wouldn't be immediately squashed as trolling by the members of a religious online community?

Either grow a spine or stop reading. You have no place to demand that the discussion stop simply because of your sensitivities.

[dramaqueen]

If someone has something specific to discuss, lets go for it! Outright bashing is just ignorant, immature, and IMO, just as spineless. If you are going to go out of your way to completely change the tone of a thread, then at least rationally support you opinion. Why is it ok for someone to come into a discussion and say I hate catholics and its ok, but if I were going to go into one of the homosexuality threads and say I hate all gay people, that would be wrong and I would be banned. (not that I would ever do that, just trying top prove a point)

If you have the balls to say something you know is going to be controversial, stand up and support your opinion. Back it up! Otherwise you just look like and idiot and a jerk.

Rational people can share ideas and opinions and most of us are rational. Calling 1/6th of the world's population a hate group is not rational unless you can prove why you feel that way. I would be willing to listen to such proof if it were reasonable, but come on- "some people I know don't like the church, so thats why I don't like it either" is just not reasonable.

Just because I am Catholic doesn't mean I think I am right and everyone else is wrong- I worked in a protestant bookstore for three years and had many people attack me for my faith and I was able to have reasonable dialogues because we shared a mutual respect for each other and agreed that we were not out to change the other person's mind.

If respect were to return to this thread, then maybe this topic could be discussed.

[Nephythys]

There is a difference between a debate and calling people members of a HATE group- and if you can't see that and instead feel the need to come in and add more insults- then you just prove my point.

You want a debate- bring it on. You want to slam on the people here because they don't want to play dirty with you- it isn't worth the keystrokes to even respond to you.

Edited to add that it just hit me that you called people in this thread COWARDS for not wanting to degrade this thread to the level it was being dragged to when they were called members of a hate group- and had their church related to a group like the KKK.

So, do those smears and insults make one BRAVE?

[quasimodo1384]

[Nephythys]

No- I am not worried. The people I see as being reasonable are doing just fine- the people I see as being confrontive, rude and hurtful can easily be put on ignore.

I have nothing against meeting people with differing views, but I have zero interest in being concerned about people who make a habit of insulting others and putting them on the defensive. There is nothing I want to learn from such people.