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  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

    Originally posted by symbolic View Post
    Its all good. DCA is going in the right direction, cant really complain about the future plans. One thing I notice about Disneyland that I thinks is cool is the elevation varies a lot and the streets are narrow and almost always have a curve to them. I know this brings you into or pulls you into the "show" I hope they do this with DCA.
    I'm sure that makes it great before the park opens and right before closing.

    All the rest of the time it just makes for a crowded walkway, which actually makes me feel like I'm in the real generic third-world jungle marketplace.
    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

    "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




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    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

      Not me, I love the feeling that you dont know whats around the corner. It makes the park seem bigger and more mysterious.

      Comment


      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

        Originally posted by thejoshualee View Post
        Of course something new and original would have been nice too.
        How is it "unoriginal?"

        Artists throughout history have "copied" successful design elements. From paintings to architecture to music, successful themes and and styles have been used as inspiration for generation after generation.

        Comment


        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

          collective knowledge. this is where I think DCA missed the boat the most, here you have the most awesome park in the world (Disneyland) and you dont follow the blue print for success and tweak it a little to be fresh and new...unbelievable.

          Comment


          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

            Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
            In case you haven't been watching, PI didn't make the connection between the two parks. WDI did, with their design for a "mirror image" "Main Street," including certain corresponding elements such as a street railway and a similar park statue. PI is merely suggesting ways to make the connection stronger in the first park.

            The two parks' "Main Streets" will be the only two places with strong "Walt" ties. As with DL, the rest of DCA's theme seem to flow willy-nilly along, with no strong connections to each other.
            I guess I asked the wrong question then. See, I'm with you on all of that. I'm not blind or stupid. I do see the similarities, and I think they are clever and appropriate. What I seek clarification on is PI's apparent need for enhancement of the already fairly obvious ties between the two elements. And after having stepped away from this for a while, I think what I take issue with more than anything is the manner in which PI expresses his views - and does not. Clearly the two Main Streets are related, and on multiple levels. What PI apparently wants to do is pummel the audience into making the metaphorical discovery that will probably occur anyway. He wants to rob guests of that moment where they get to feel smart and intuitive - the moment when THEY make the connection that PI wants them to make. Making substantial thematic and art directed changes to Main Street will not only unnecessarily change the nature of the existing experience, but it may serve to alienate the audience as well.

            It is one thing to present fantastical conjecture in an open discussion, such as "You just won the lottery! What ride would you have WDI build?!?" where anything goes and you can make up your own rules as you go, and where nothing is too ridiculous or impossible. It is quite another to open discussion on a supposedly realistic proposal and then procede to insult our intelligence with blind arrogance, haughty claims and complete ignorant disregard of the actual reality. The aim of nearly all of my replies and arguments has been to try and get a straight answer from PI without cherry-picking avoidance, subject change, double-talk and the Disney Quotation Archives equivalent of "bible dipping." I still don't think I've gotten it. What I have gotten is a lot of people sweeping in with feverish attempts at interpreting the pompous prose of PragmaticIdealist.
            Last edited by composerboy; 10-31-2007, 06:52 AM.

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            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

              Originally posted by composerboy View Post
              I guess I asked the wrong question then. See, I'm with you on all of that. I'm not blind or stupid....What PI apparently wants to do is pummel the audience into making the metaphorical discovery that will probably occur anyway. He wants to rob guests of that moment where they get to feel smart and intuitive - the moment when THEY make the connection that PI wants them to make. Making substantial thematic and art directed changes to Main Street will not only unnecessarily change the nature of the existing experience, but it may serve to alienate the audience as well.
              You know, several of us have tried to mediate the discussion between you and PI. Several, if not most, of us understand PI, and get what he's trying to say. Many don't agree with it, which is fine of course. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be insulting in any way, but if you cannot read what he writes and understand his points, then I cannot help you, short of re-writing what he says in order to simplify it, which I don't want to do any more. PI speaks eloquently enough for himself.

              You state several things above that lead me to believe you're just not comprehending PI's posts. "substantial thematic and art directed changes," for example. No where has PI or anyone suggested these. "[P]ummel the audience into making the metaphorical discovery" is another. No one's talking about pummeling. One of PI's suggestions is to take the middle-age photos of Walt in Main Street Station and replacing them with photos of a younger Walt. Another is to take 5 stars off the US flag. Pummeling? Hardly.

              Originally posted by composerboy View Post
              It is one thing to present fantastical conjecture in an open discussion, ...where nothing is too ridiculous or impossible. It is quite another to open discussion on a supposedly realistic proposal and then procede to insult our intelligence with blind arrogance, haughty claims and complete ignorant disregard of the reality. The aim of nearly all of my replies and arguments has been to try and get a straight answer from PI without cherry-picking avoidance, subject change, double-talk and the Disney Quotation Archives equivalent of "bible dipping." I still don't think I've gotten it. What I have gotten is a lot of people sweeping in with feverish attempts at interpreting the pompous prose of PragmaticIdealist.
              Again, I can't help you here. Either you grasp what PI is trying to say, or you don't, and it definitely seems you're not getting it without additional spoon-fed explanations. I'm sorry to be hard here, but you seem to be too wrapped up in PI's seeming condescension to be able to fully grasp his proposals without exaggerating them in your own mind, as I've noted above. You also seem to be the one throwing around all the derogatory terms as well, such as "ridiculous," "arrogance," "haughty," "ignorant," "pompous."

              At this point, I think you're probably going to have to agree to disagree with PI.
              Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 10-31-2007, 07:23 AM.

              Comment


              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                Originally posted by Pressler69 View Post
                Could this be because you stay within the safe confines of Disney fandom?

                While those insults have been a bit on the extreme, if you go outside Disney fandom you'll find many people who think you're "weird" if you enjoy Disneyland too much for their tastes. They might not think you're a pedophile, but they might think less of you in general for enjoying a "kiddie park".

                I have no problem looking in the mirror. There is nothing I have done in my life to suggest any wrongdoing.
                I spend all of my life outside of "Disney fandom" except for my time on this site and people are not called pedophile for visiting an amusement park. In fact, over the years, I've known plenty of people who visit the parks on a regular basis and have read posts here by people who go weekly and have never gone to the "must be a pedophile" card. Something must be driving that perception. No need to respond here, but I would just encourage you to seek some assistance from a professional to address these perceptions.
                Last edited by rgrant999; 10-31-2007, 08:06 AM.

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                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                  Pragmatic Idealist said: Since The Walt Disney Story will soon be leaving the Disneyland Opera House, the Main Street Cinema offers a good venue for a new attraction that is about the early years when Walt Disney first took an interest in filmmaking, itself. There is a story to be told here, and it relates directly to Disney's California.

                  The Main Street Cinema functioned in a similar way, originally. Each of the screens played a different silent film that later inspired the development of Mickey Mouse, himself.
                  Okay, this is what I was talking about earlier: the only changes that need to happen on mainstreet because of DCA is where one attraction on mainstreet is more suited to the new entry. I personally feel that the Walt Disney story and any exhibits on how he made his movies, which would be really cool, should go in DCA remodel. That fits the theme of that land. I think Mainstreet Opera House should either 1) host the great moments with Mr. Lincoln or 2) I still like the idea of just showing a different cartoon every 10 minutes in the theater area.

                  I think the story of how Walt made his movies does belong in DCA. Maybe as a separate interactive attraction that recreates his early studio, shows the garage he filmed stuff in, etc. Would be really cool.

                  Again, I think Main street could use improvements because of its own merit, but in general I don't think you need to change to reflect the new DCA entrance. Again though, if something works better across the way, then let it go there and add something to replace it in Mainstreet.

                  However, if they are going to change anything in DL, let it be Tommorrowland/Fantasyland please. Need to do some work with painting, detail, and need to add a few attractions. Those lands, in my opinion, are in far more dire straits than mainstreet itself at the moment. I would worry less about Main Street until some of that is solved.
                  "It was worth it if you learned something."

                  Comment


                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                    Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                    In case you haven't been watching, PI didn't make the connection between the two parks. WDI did, with their design for a "mirror image" "Main Street," including certain corresponding elements such as a street railway and a similar park statue. PI is merely suggesting ways to make the connection stronger in the first park.

                    The two parks' "Main Streets" will be the only two places with strong "Walt" ties. As with DL, the rest of DCA's theme seem to flow willy-nilly along, with no strong connections to each other.
                    So...because both parks will have a "main street" that means they have to be thematically related with one affecting the other? I believe you yourself in this thread Steve said "every town back then had a main street" or something to that effect (way back in this thread).

                    I do agree with Prag though..."Waltified" is a great word, fun to say!

                    Ultimately, I still don't think the two parks need to be linked just because WDI has decided to put some similar elements into their new re-do of DCA. I do agree with Prag about some of the changes he suggests about MSUSA, the difference is I don't see those changes as needed for any reason that has to do with anything happening across the way.

                    I also am not so fanatical about certain thematic elements. Characters doing photo ops on the square? No big deal. I guess some here freak out and shudder at the idea. Many others do not. That does not make either side less of a DL fan than the other, that makes them human with their own opinions.

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                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                      Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                      You know, several of us have tried to mediate the discussion between you and PI. Several, if not most, of us understand PI, and get what he's trying to say. Many don't agree with it, which is fine of course. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be insulting in any way, but if you cannot read what he writes and understand his points, then I cannot help you, short of re-writing what he says in order to simplify it, which I don't want to do any more. PI speaks eloquently enough for himself.

                      You also seem to be the one throwing around all the derogatory terms as well, such as "ridiculous," "arrogance," "haughty," "ignorant," "pompous."
                      Yes, but I don't do it in an arrogant fashion. I am also not the only one who feels this way. Besides, I don't feel those labels are derogatory.

                      I think you might be correct in you claims that I have blown this whole thing out of proportion in my own head. And if anything, it's out of complete frustration. Arguing with PI is like trying to argue with a Creationist. You never get a straight answer, and most often, your questions are met with another question. This is avoidance, and it's frustrating. And when I said "I still don't think I've gotten it," I was referring to the explanations I was asking for, not an indication of my lack of understanding of his points.

                      To reiterate - I'm not a fool. I read and comprehend all of PI's posts. I think that PI is the one missing the point here, not me. I think that the great passion play here has sprouted from what has turned out to be futile and pointless nit-picking. For example:

                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      Certain things, like the stanchions in Town Square that support the stage lights, detract from the believability of Main Street, U.S.A., so, generally-speaking, as this part of Disneyland becomes stronger, Disney's California, itself, will be made stronger, too.
                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      Well, obviously, some changes are implicit in the announcement that was made earlier this month.

                      The Disneyland Opera House is no longer going to host The Walt Disney Story, or any version of it. So, that change will certainly make Main Street, U.S.A. stronger, creatively-speaking.
                      So... remove old Walt and replace him with child and adolescent Walt?

                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      Removing the California state flag from Town Square is also a good next step.
                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      For instance, a small detail that detracts from the story is a railway map of California hanging in the lobby of Main Street Station.
                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      Certain things, like the stanchions in Town Square that support the stage lights, detract from the believability of Main Street, U.S.A., so, generally-speaking, as this part of Disneyland becomes stronger, Disney's California, itself, will be made stronger, too.
                      Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                      I'd like to see a new attraction replace the Mickey Mouse shorts that are currently playing at the Main Street Cinema.
                      And Seasnake summed up the frustration over this line of thinking:
                      Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                      Um ... It's Disneyland. Only a very few people go to Main Street with the idea that they are going to experience 1900s small town life. That is the motif of the area, but really most of us steam forward towards Indy or Space Mountain, while small children run to hug Mickey and Pooh. I think you're officially being a little too purist now, guests seeing Mickey in Mainstreet will not shake their heads and say "But Walt didn't draw Mickey until after he left Marceline!" (faints with shock). Besides, if Mr. Lincoln and six Mickey cartoons can live on Mainstreet while not destroying the harmony of the park, I think we're safe.

                      Besides, the parade route pretty much makes it impossible for Mainstreet to be an authentic small turn of the century town. So let's allow for a little land blending, if you will, and permit Mickey to walk to mainstreet. I doubt anyone will feel the power of the mouse is diminished because you saw him next to Carnation Cafe.
                      Datameister also makes a good point:
                      Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                      He was indeed attempting to--within certain reasonable limitations. There always have been and always will be certain compromises to cohesive theming, no matter what land or park we're talking about. That's how reality is. And in fact, no matter how convincing the illusion is, people will still know it's an illusion. Do parades and anachronistic characters and California flags remind people that it's an illusion? Maybe a little bit...but they love it! It's okay to break down thematic barriers from time to time if it will better the "average" guest's enjoyment of the park.
                      MY point is that while yes, apparently I should agree to disagree with PI, he/she should also take a moment and listen to our points of view and possibly re-examine his own. That doesn't appear to be happening. All I see is avoidance of that. It's obvious to me that nearly everyone here is in agreement over the fact that yes, Main Street could and should be improved - just not as a REACTION to a thematically complimentary area being built adjacent to it.

                      Comment


                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                        The Mice Age comlumnist has spoken Composerboy! Don't cross him, you'll step onto a DLRR train one day and never be seen again! The man has that kind of clout!

                        Comment


                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                          And if anything, it's out of complete frustration. Arguing with PI is like trying to argue with a Creationist.
                          Whoa my friend. Some of us are creationists and have no trouble with the theory of evolution (especially if you believe God uses scientific processes, such as evolution, to end up with the desired result). Anyway, please be careful of saying things like that, I come onto to this board to discuss Mickey and Goofy not religious belief, and don't appreciate seems to be a jab at theism. Thank-you, I won't discuss the matter further because this isn't the place, but would be extremely thankful if you could not make such references in the future. Sorry to get off track.

                          MY point is that while yes, apparently I should agree to disagree with PI, he/she should also take a moment and listen to our points of view and possibly re-examine his own. That doesn't appear to be happening. All I see is avoidance of that. It's obvious to me that nearly everyone here is in agreement over the fact that yes, Main Street could and should be improved - just not as a REACTION to a thematically complimentary area being built adjacent to it.
                          I think there is a lot of merit to what you say, I don't feel like PI has ever responded to others opinions merely assumed it was his duty to explain his in such a way that we could all understand. That has led to a lot of frustration at times, because he makes a statement, you disagree, and he plows ahead with an affirmation of how right he is instead of addressing your post. That, more than anything else, has made this thread troubling for people.

                          Yes, but I don't do it in an arrogant fashion. I am also not the only one who feels this way. Besides, I don't feel those labels are derogatory.
                          While not saying these terms are necessarily inaccurate based on the perception of PIs posts, I think that it is impossible to say the words "arrogant" and "ignorant" are complimentary or even neutral. I think they are derogatory, so on this small point we disagree. However, sometimes the feeling of PIs posts is tired schoolmaster dealing with dumb children, and it does grate on your nerves. Especially when he refuses to address your arguments.
                          "It was worth it if you learned something."

                          Comment


                          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                            Originally posted by composerboy View Post
                            MY point is that while yes, apparently I should agree to disagree with PI, he/she should also take a moment and listen to our points of view and possibly re-examine his own. That doesn't appear to be happening.
                            How do you know he hasn't thought about your points, reconsidered his, and decided to maintain his position?

                            Comment


                            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                              Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                              Whoa my friend. Some of us are creationists and have no trouble with the theory of evolution (especially if you believe God uses scientific processes, such as evolution, to end up with the desired result). Anyway, please be careful of saying things like that, I come onto to this board to discuss Mickey and Goofy not religious belief, and don't appreciate seems to be a jab at theism. Thank-you, I won't discuss the matter further because this isn't the place, but would be extremely thankful if you could not make such references in the future.
                              My apologies. Point taken.

                              Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                              While not saying these terms are necessarily inaccurate based on the perception of PIs posts, I think that it is impossible to say the words "arrogant" and "ignorant" are complimentary or even neutral. I think they are derogatory, so on this small point we disagree. However, sometimes the feeling of PIs posts is tired schoolmaster dealing with dumb children, and it does grate on your nerves. Especially when he refuses to address your arguments.
                              That's a perfect summary of my frustrations.

                              Comment


                              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                                How do you know he hasn't thought about your points, reconsidered his, and decided to maintain his position?
                                Uh.. I don't? But wouldn't it be nice to know? Even a simple post such as "You know, I've thought about it, and despite considering your compelling arguments, I've decided that I'm still right." would be helpful at this point.

                                Comment


                                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                  ^^Awesome, great minds think alike (posted mine at same time as yours).

                                  How do you know he hasn't thought about your points, reconsidered his, and decided to maintain his position?
                                  I don't. That's the problem. He offers no clue that he has listened to anyones point, I don't recall even a "I see where you're coming from" or "Hmmm, I disagree with your last." In fact, I see NO sign he has even read any criticism of his points, even an acknowledgement that majority of people on this thread seem to believe his first post was innaccurate. That is troublesome.

                                  My apologies. Point taken.
                                  It's all cool.
                                  "It was worth it if you learned something."

                                  Comment


                                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                    Originally posted by 2DieFR View Post
                                    BigThunder was referring to my post, Pressler69, not yours.
                                    Actually I was referring to post 211. I just wasn't fast enough.


                                    ...So what do you guys think about strollers in the parks? :whistling
                                    Please visit my Big Thunder/Disney Inspired Model Railroad


                                    Dream big. Do what you love.

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                                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                      Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                                      I don't. That's the problem. He offers no clue that he has listened to anyones point, I don't recall even a "I see where you're coming from" or "Hmmm, I disagree with your last." In fact, I see NO sign he has even read any criticism of our points, even an acknowledgement that majority of people on this thread seem to belief his first post was innaccurate. That is troublesome.
                                      His first post was "inaccurate?" How so?

                                      Most of the people who disagree with PI sum up their "arguments" this way: "That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard," Or, "I don't get what the heck you're talking about." PI responds to these by continuing to try and expound his idea.

                                      I see no reason for him to come out and state--as you seem to wish--"You know, you're right! I see your point. That is the stupidest idea I've ever had! Ha ha!! Where the heck did I get that from?? Maybe I read too much."

                                      He is under no obligation to agree that his ideas are wrong, stupid, not-well-though-out, or any other description. Why do so many think he does have that obligation?

                                      Comment


                                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                        Originally posted by BigThunder View Post
                                        ...So what do you guys think about strollers in the parks? :whistling
                                        They're necessary to carry children who are too young to walk.

                                        [/derail]

                                        Comment


                                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                          No Steve, but:

                                          You and I, Composerboy, Goofy Daddy, and others have all stated the following "There is no need to change main street merely because there are changes coming to DCA" at some point on this thread. I don't think he has to admit he was wrong at all, please read what I posted more carefully Steve. HE DOESN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE POSTED ANYTHING AT HIM AT ALL. Not even a "I disagree with your assessment" or "Read your last post but feel you are wrong." Because this is a message board, not a conversation face to face, we constantly reference other points made earlier so the thoughts are connected. I can't think of one moment he did this.

                                          Steve, no one is asking him to respond to insults. We're asking him to respond to questions or defend his blanket statements. I'll give you some examples:

                                          PI: Adults pander to children, but children want more ...
                                          GoofyDaddy: What makes you an authority on what children want?
                                          PI: ____________

                                          PI: Having Mickey in Town Plaza destroys the carefully crafted image of Main Street.
                                          Seasnake: Didn't Walt and Mickey stroll down Main Street together? If Walt felt Mickey's presence didn't harm the theme, why shold we?
                                          PI: ____________

                                          PI: The new changes at DCA's entry and relocation provide the opportunity for Main Street improvements to better tie the two parks together.
                                          Composerboy: But why should they be tied together? After all, if EPCOT and MGM and Animal Kingdom tried to tie in it'd be a nightmare, and not park is hurt by being distinctive.
                                          PI: ______________

                                          These are not "you're stupid LOL" responses. If PI had come back and simply responded to those questions or arguments or even ACKNOWLEDGE someone had doubts or questions he would have generated a lot less heat. He never has to agree, but it is common courtesy to engage. YOU, Steve, have done a much better job engaging other parties then he has and that's why I like you so much, even if we do not agree.
                                          "It was worth it if you learned something."

                                          Comment

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