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  • #81
    Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

    Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
    And you speak of Prag's supposed arrogance? Who are you to say what Prag can speak of? I know I didn't like being talked down to as a kid. Throughout my youth and adolescence I didn't want petty thrills and cheap entertainment. I enjoyed intelligent entertainment, and I'm sure most kids would like the same thing. Unfortunately, overcrowded classrooms, shows like Spongebob Square Pants, and endless shelves of video games tell them otherwise.
    Please don't make this arguement on the extent of thematic elements an arguement on the negative effects of video games and TV shows. My favorite book in the fourth grade was a book on the Civil War, but I grew up playing video games extensively, and still do. Video games can be intelligent, and often are. There is very little correlation, from what I can see.

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    • #82
      Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

      Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
      (slightly off topic) aashee, when the Magic Kingdom opened in 1971 all of the American flags were period specific. The rumor so that they could legally be flown at night without lighting, but no such laws exist. Sadly this is a detail that has fallen to the side.
      That's a shame if they've let that detail slip at WDW. It is still in full effect at Disneyland. There are, or course, period specific "historical banners" flying all over Disneyland. The one true "American Flag" flies in the Town Square, the location where Disney Security Officers still perform the daily flag retreat ceremony.

      But the flags flying in Frontierland, New Orleans Square and Critter Country are period specific. And since they have less than 50 stars on them, they are no longer American Flags and are instead treated as "historical banners".

      You see, Disneyland is one of the few organizations outside of the state and federal government that still abides by the clear regulations of the Flag Code of the United States as laid out by the US Department of State. Any American flag that is not current automatically becomes a banner, and it is no longer regulated by the State Department's Flag Code. That is why the "flag" flying above Frontierland is not lowered to half staff; lowering an unofficial banner to half staff is disrespectful and prohibited by the Flag Code. During a time of national mourning, only the official Flag of the United States of America should be lowered to half staff.

      If WDW's Magic Kingdom has gotten away from that easily followed regulation, then that is a real shame. But something tells me they haven't, as any of the thousands of veterans that visit WDW in any given week would spot the error and likely alert WDW management to the issue.

      Something tells me WDW is doing exactly what Disneyland is doing, and that is flying the official and current American Flag in the Town Square, and then using historical banners in themed areas where a previous time and era is supposed to be represented. The historical banners are held to a different standard and set of regulations per the Flag Code.

      PragmaticIdealist argued once before that the American Flag in Disneyland's Town Square should be replaced by a historical banner with only 45 stars, representing the number of states from 1895 to 1905. That would change everything, and the banner would no longer be able to be used in formal flag retreat ceremonies, nor would it be able to be flown at half staff during times of national mourning. The flag would have 45 stars on it, 99.99% of the people visiting Disneyland each day wouldn't be able to spot that difference, and there would be a line a mile long outside City Hall of patriotic citizens wanting to know why Disneyland no longer respected the American Flag.

      I volunteer Prag to staff the City Hall desk to explain his grand thematic vision for Main Street to every one of those upset Disneyland visitors each day accusing Disney of no longer being patriotic. Talk about your public relations nightmare.

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      • #83
        Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

        I'm not so sure that the debate is "stupid". I just don't agree that Main St. is specifically about Walt. He wasn't even alive in the 1890's. I think he wanted to capture the innocence of the era and the nostalgia. And I agree that the generic stores are disappointing and are not indicative of the era represented. But the area serves more than just an exacting recreation of a small town. It's always functioned as an entry point, a place where guests can find info, make a complaint, get some aspirin, find lost parents, etc...These functions do not betray the thematic concerns of the area; nor do I feel that characters in and of themselves detract from the overall function of Main St. in that context.

        Why is it so easy to accept a medieval castle at one end and not 1920's Los Angeles at the other?

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        • #84
          Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

          Since Disney's California gives the 31st state in the Union a special place of honor in the annals of Disneyan history, Main Street, U.S.A. can do something similar for the United States as a whole.

          Since The Walt Disney Story will be removed from the Disneyland Opera House, a new patriotic show there that presents the spirit of Mr. Lincoln in a broader context would be absolutely ideal. And, since international guests are traveling to the United States when they visit Disneyland, an Americana shop adjacent to the opera house has the potential to be a great success, as well.

          The Disneyland Opera House should enlarge "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" to encompass a presentation that is about the United States, more generally. While Walt Disney was clearly making use of the State of Illinois' money when he put Mr. Lincoln on Main Street, U.S.A., I've always thought of the animatronic figure as embodying a spirit whose words have eternal meaning for Americans of the past, present, and future. So, I see no reason for the 16th President to stop making appearances at the opera house. In fact, he potentially helps strengthen the California park, creatively-speaking.

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          • #85
            Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

            I believe that the two entryways DO relate, and beautifully so, because they both represent different stages in Walt's life. Not to mention that, unlike at WDW, the Imagineers knew that there is going to be a lot of crossing over between the two parks, since they're right across from each other.

            However, I have to say that while Main Street contains a few anachronisms, it's theme of a small American Anytown at the Turn of the Century is relatively in tact. Improvements could be made, as always, and those improvements could also conceivably enhance the experience of Walt Disney Plaza.

            Meanwhile, (especially by comparison to Main Street) the current DCA entrance is total confusion - we're going under the Golden Gate bridge, so we're presumably entering San Francisco Bay, but we're also in a train station, but we're also by "the ocean" (the wave fountain) but we're also in a huge cement lot that connects unceremoniously to other lands.
            "Happy Working Song" parody for DCA remodel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-TYESfNTP8&feature=plcp

            Retro Rant Review of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame II" (comedy review of direct-to-video
            Disney sequel):
            Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../1/q1j7FU8QXu0
            Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../0/sasNTMDRBLU

            Retro Rant Review of "Home on the Range" (comedy review of Disney movie):
            Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mC-...feature=relmfu
            Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoUie...feature=relmfu
            Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Vea...feature=relmfu


            Visit my site: http://www.vividgroovy.com



            Pratfall the albatross superheroine visits the Carthay Circle Theatre.

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            • #86
              Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

              Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
              The Disneyland Opera House should enlarge "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln"
              That show is played. It was boring enough back in 1975 when they tried to replace it the first time. Three versions later and it's still just as bad.

              They should put a Disneyland Museum in the Opera House. That would be good.

              Comment


              • #87
                Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                That show is played. It was boring enough back in 1975 when they tried to replace it the first time. Three versions later and it's still just as bad.
                I disagree. It was a little Disneyland gem, IMO. And the recent use of binaural audio was amazing.

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                • #88
                  Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                  Originally posted by TP2000 View Post
                  Here we go gang.... another thread where PragmaticIdealist tries to remake Disneyland into a rigid and historically accurate version of Colonial Williamsburg instead of a theme park. http://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/history/

                  Okay, I'll play along again.

                  The biggest and most glaring historical error that mars Main Street USA is the twice daily parade that trundles through. Mulan, Hercules, Lion King, Electrical Parade, giant blue whales pulling clouds, etc., etc. How do those fit the Main Street USA theme?

                  What about the ATM machine? The electric wheelchair rental place? All of the merchandise for sale in all of the shops? The glow necklaces the ODV kids sell after sundown? Did the local small town Missouri bakery really sell iced lattes in 1905? And did they really charge four bucks for them?

                  So many inaccuracies all up and down Main Street! The flag of California respectfully displayed on the flagpole is the least of the concerns.
                  I find curious the fact that virtually everything you cited in your litany of excuses is a change that has happened to Main Street, U.S.A. since Walt Disney was alive.

                  You also failed to mention all the things that have been lost on Main Street, U.S.A., from lamplighters lighting the gaslamps to horse-drawn surreys sharing the road with horse-less carriages.

                  Walt Disney visited the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan during Disneyland's development, and that living-history museum influenced much of the design. Moreover, he even said that Disneyland would, at times, be a "museum of living facts". So, if you don't see that Walt Disney's vision had more in common with Colonial Williamsburg than The Grove at Farmer's Market, then you just don't understand the type of theatre Disney was inventing.

                  His mantra was: "No contradictions!" Contradictions prevent guests from suspending their disbelief, and they also potentially make the presentation unclear and incoherent. Disneyland presents stories, and, on Main Street, U.S.A., the story is based on true events.

                  As Disney's California continues the story, the versimilitude of Main Street, U.S.A. will become even more important.

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                  • #89
                    Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                    Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                    That show is played. It was boring enough back in 1975 when they tried to replace it the first time. Three versions later and it's still just as bad.

                    They should put a Disneyland Museum in the Opera House. That would be good.
                    ... spoken like someone with no imagination.

                    I appreciate your consistency, Mr. Liver. You always meet my expectations.

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                    • #90
                      Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                      Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                      I agree.


                      It doesn't matter where Disneyland is physically. New Orleans Square is obviously in Anaheim, California - but when you're in New Orleans Square, you're supposed to be transported to New Orleans, Louisiana. Main Street, U.S.A. is not "Main Street, California." Since Main Street is supposed to be Anybody's Hometown, U.S.A. then it shouldn't feature a state flag.



                      [bold mine]
                      And you speak of Prag's supposed arrogance? Who are you to say what Prag can speak of? I know I didn't like being talked down to as a kid. Throughout my youth and adolescence I didn't want petty thrills and cheap entertainment. I enjoyed intelligent entertainment, and I'm sure most kids would like the same thing. Unfortunately, overcrowded classrooms, shows like Spongebob Square Pants, and endless shelves of video games tell them otherwise.


                      [bold mine]

                      I don't know how reliable my Mac's dictionary widget is, but...
                      While looking up words in your Mac dictionary may I highly reccommend that you also look up the word "endeavor".

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                      • #91
                        Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                        Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                        ... spoken like someone with no imagination.
                        I admit I don't have a good sense of creativity. Maybe a Disneyland Museum wouldn't really be the best fit.

                        But I stand by the point that Lincoln is dated, old, and done as a concept. I love history, I love Lincoln, and a long time ago I was a big fan of the Lincoln show, but I think deep down I've never been comfortable with the idea of turning him into a theme park side show - and I'm even saddened at the fact that our greatest president can't even draw a crowd at a US Theme Park.

                        I think it's time to move away from the Lincoln concept and develop something else entirely.

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                        • #92
                          Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                          My bologna has a first name: it's P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S

                          My bologna has a second name: it's T-H-R-E-A-D

                          -- PMM

                          "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom." -- James 3:13

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                          • #93
                            Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                            Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                            That show is played. It was boring enough back in 1975 when they tried to replace it the first time. Three versions later and it's still just as bad.
                            What do you want? Stick a letterman's jacket on him and have him perform numbers from the High School Musical movies?

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                            • #94
                              Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                              main street dosen't needed to be changed, it's DCA that needs the changes
                              sigpicDISNEYROYALTY

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                              • #95
                                Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                ... spoken like someone with no imagination.

                                I appreciate your consistency, Mr. Liver. You always meet my expectations.
                                At last we come to it... The great battle of our time. Here before the gates of Minus Tirith the hammer-stroke will fall hardest...

                                - Gandalf
                                Please visit my Big Thunder/Disney Inspired Model Railroad


                                Dream big. Do what you love.

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                                • #96
                                  Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  D.C.A. is getting a continuation of the story begun on Main Street, U.S.A. So, Main Street's story is more important, now, than ever before because D.C.A. is relying upon that narrative.
                                  Thank you for the clarification, however I completely disagree with you. I fail to see exactly how DCA's proposed "Main Street" is in any way a continuation of Disneyland's Main Street. If anything, it's as I proposed in another DCA thread - an analog to Disneyland's. By analog, I mean analogous, which by definition means (to use a biological example from dictionary.com)
                                  1. An organ or structure that is similar in function to one in another kind of organism but is of dissimilar evolutionary origin. The wings of birds and the wings of insects are analogs.
                                  The new Main Street at DCA is completely separate and narratively independent from the Main Street in Disneyland. I find it difficult to accept that the intention was to have guests walk down Main Street in Disneyland and then later that day walk through the gates of DCA and have some sort of narrative epiphany with everything suddenly making sense; no more than they would walking into the Disney MGM Studios in WDW.


                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  Main Street, U.S.A. has been compromised over the years by things like Mickey Mouse cartoons at the Main Street Cinema, as well as by The Walt Disney Story at the Disneyland Opera House. So, I intended the initial question to spark a thoughtful discussion about what needs to be done to Main Street, U.S.A. in order to strengthen the overall presentation. Somewhere along the way, though, the discussion devolved into an unbelievably stupid debate about the fact that Main Street, U.S.A. is intended to transport the audience to Middle America at the turn of the 19th Century, instead of a giant Gap store.
                                  Compromised? I think that's overstating it a bit. If anyone here could be accused of being a theming Nazi, it would be me. However, I think that the original intention of Main Street was, as others before me have said - Is to merely evoke feelings of nostalgia for a non-specific place and a fairly broad span of time. Obviously shops full of turn of the century goods would be impractical, expensive and useless to anyone but antique collectors. The shops have been reasonably themed as well as can be expected, while still presenting goods and services relelvant to current tastes and styles. One need look no further than the Market House for an example of this.

                                  As for show elements such as The Walt Disney Story or the Main Street Cinema, I think it's fair to say that they do a reasonably good job of living up to their thematic intent. The Cinema is indeed a cinema, showing old animated classics. Sure, it's not showing The Great Train Robbery or other silent Classics, it's showing something ANALOGOUS to that in the context of Disneyland. The Walt Disney Story IS told in a theater - advertised as an "Opera House." Traditionally, if a town even HAD an Opera House, it would serve multiple functions, including town meetings, variety acts and even educational lectures, along the lines of The Walt Disney Story. It wouldn't be opera 24/7. Under your argument, it seems you would have the Opera House showing Opera, which again, would be expensive and impractical.

                                  As it is now, I don't feel that any of these things are infractions against the "story" being told on Main Street, as it was never meant to be a fully immersive shockingly realistic environment like The Indiana Jones Adventure, as an example.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  While Main Street, U.S.A. is everyone's hometown, the place is more Walt Disney's than that of anyone else.
                                  If you're referring to DCA's "Main Street" I would have to disagree with that as well. First, I don't think that the feelings of nostalgia that are meant to be invoked there are not the same ones as with Disneyland's. For one thing, the days when people would respond specifically to the era presented in Main Street USA are nearly gone. I think only my 85 and 95 year old Grandparents could have a specific personal memory of such a place - and that's streching it. 90% of guests know about such places mainly from things such as Main Street USA. It becomes a charming history lesson, much like the Ghost Town at Knott's Berry Farm. It's not "everyone's hometown." The DCA "Main Street" will serve to provide nostalgia for a time of the Golden Age of Hollywood, and a time of exciting technical and artistic innovation. Do you think they'll be selling leaded gasoline, Wurlitzer Organs, console radios, fedoras and three piece suits? I don't think so. But I don't think that that fact will take away from the different kind of exciting nostalgia for a time gone by - a time of burgeoning business and entertainment as contextualized by Walt Disney's arrival and subsequent success. In fact, as it appears, I think you're even meant to journey forward in time from the 20s to the 30s as you walk from the entrance to the Walt Disney Plaza, where the centerpiece is a recall of his first major triumph - The Carthay Circle Theater - where "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" premiered.

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                                  • #97
                                    Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                    His mantra was: "No contradictions!" Contradictions prevent guests from suspending their disbelief, and they also potentially make the presentation unclear and incoherent.
                                    Which is exactly why he put an alpine peak with inaccurate waterfalls, foliage, snow patterns, and holeyness at the crossroads of a futuristic showcase and a medieval village, right?

                                    - Datameister, who loves the Matterhorn despite its many thematic contradictions

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                                    • #98
                                      Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                      Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                                      Which is exactly why he put an alpine peak with inaccurate waterfalls, foliage, snow patterns, and holeyness at the crossroads of a futuristic showcase and a medieval village, right?

                                      - Datameister, who loves the Matterhorn despite its many thematic contradictions
                                      Well, I would think that mountains will exist in the future, as they also have existed in the past. I have no problem with being able to see the Matterhorn from various places in DL.

                                      That being stated. Walt still did contradict himself greatly. Just take a look at the "Disneyland '59" TV special which he produced which introduced the Matterhorn to America. There is a huge show out front featuring Alpine dancers when all of a sudden they are joined by western dancers (cowboys and cowgirls) doing a square dance. Sounds a bit like a contradiction to me there...

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                                      • #99
                                        Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                        Agreed. Some of the hubris here is nausiating.

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                                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                          Originally posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
                                          That being stated. Walt still did contradict himself greatly. Just take a look at the "Disneyland '59" TV special which he produced which introduced the Matterhorn to America. There is a huge show out front featuring Alpine dancers when all of a sudden they are joined by western dancers (cowboys and cowgirls) doing a square dance. Sounds a bit like a contradiction to me there...
                                          I have only a vaugue memory of seeing a clip of that on TV (rerun sometime in the 90's), but I would say that's probably a purposeful juxtaposition, with the Swiss dancers representing the Swiss mountain, and the Cowboy dancers representing that Walt had brought it to America.

                                          Yes, the Matterhorn is a contradiction, but I believe Walt built it because he saw the real Matterhorn while on vacation in Europe and just thought it would be really awesome to bring it back to Disneyland. I don't think it was that a marketing survey discerned that the Matterhorn was the most popular mountain at the moment with the tween demographic, so he decided to shoehorn it in, or something like that .
                                          Last edited by animagusurreal; 10-29-2007, 10:20 PM.
                                          "Happy Working Song" parody for DCA remodel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-TYESfNTP8&feature=plcp

                                          Retro Rant Review of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame II" (comedy review of direct-to-video
                                          Disney sequel):
                                          Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../1/q1j7FU8QXu0
                                          Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/user/animagus.../0/sasNTMDRBLU

                                          Retro Rant Review of "Home on the Range" (comedy review of Disney movie):
                                          Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7mC-...feature=relmfu
                                          Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoUie...feature=relmfu
                                          Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Vea...feature=relmfu


                                          Visit my site: http://www.vividgroovy.com



                                          Pratfall the albatross superheroine visits the Carthay Circle Theatre.

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