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  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

    Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln is one of the few attractions in Disneyland that I would suggest they continue to operate and maintain even if it plays to an empty house, if only to respect the memory of Walt Disney and the Imagineers that created it.

    I really can't imagine what else you'd put there. It's one of the few things in Disneyland I would label as a historical landmark.

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    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

      Originally posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
      While looking up words in your Mac dictionary may I highly reccommend that you also look up the word "endeavor".
      Then what's your point? You said:
      "Walt Disney admits that they are endeavoring to recapture the by-gone days represented on Main Street. Nowhere does he state they are recreating those days."

      Of course theres no way they could ever recreate "those days" - but they are certainly trying to. At a certain point, the efforts create a certain level of believability and guests can actually experience those days on a certain level.

      Degrading the show, even with minor flaws, can obviously risk compromising the believability that Disney is endeavoring, or trying really hard, to recapture, or recreate.


      Of course, flaws are impossible to avoid. Modern day cash registers certainly contradict the show in Main Street Stores. Abraham Lincoln in the Opera House similarly contradicts the show as well, along with Mickey Mouse in the Cinemas, and the California state flag in Town Square.

      It's a matter of where do they draw the line? I disagree with Prag when he says that Lincoln is important to Main Street - if anything he shatters the illusion as much as Mickey Mouse does in the Cinemas. You have to leave both or get rid of both... ...You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

      Walt's mantra may have been "no contradictions" but it's no secret he made plenty... I always internally struggle with theming debates because while present-day Imagineering is making decisions like Toys in Tomorrowland or Pirates in the Frontier, Walt made highly questionable decisions as well, like a Swiss peak in the middle of the park, and turning the turn-of-the-century Steam Trains into time machines so he could show off his dinosaurs.


      Originally posted by PeoplemoverMatt View Post
      My bologna has a first name: it's P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S

      My bologna has a second name: it's T-H-R-E-A-D

      -- PMM
      Then get out.
      Last edited by MasterGracey; 10-29-2007, 11:34 PM.

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      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

        Change Center Street back into the flower mart it once was. That was cool. I would also love to see an improved coffee house. I also wouldn't mind if they put an entirely new sit down restaurant back into the Plaza Pavilion. That would be such a cool place to have a sit down restaurant similar to Cafe Orleans. The patios lovely and it is a perfect spot to view the parade in the afternoon or fireworks in the evening.

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        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

          Theme parks, by their very nature, contain anachronisms. Sure, the trash cans in Frontierland are themed, but they're themed metal trashcans. Did they have these in the period represented? No. Do they detract from the atmosphere? I don't think so. They are there because they are necessary. I certainly think that Main St. could stand to regain some of the charm it has lost over the years, but not to reinforce a transition to an area of a different park that doesn't seem connected to me at all, thematically.

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          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

            Originally posted by DisneyMickey View Post
            The patios lovely and it is a perfect spot to view the parade in the afternoon or fireworks in the evening.
            They don't want you to watch the fireworks from a dining area. They want you to eat and get out to make way for the next paying customer, not eat and then sit there and wait for the fireworks or parade. That's why they planted those tall bushes.

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            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

              Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
              I find curious the fact that virtually everything you cited in your litany of excuses is a change that has happened to Main Street, U.S.A. since Walt Disney was alive.
              Yeah, I forgot Walt never allowed themed parades down Main Street USA. High school marching bands from OC schools were kept off Main Street in the 50's and 60's too. He also never allowed 1950's cash registers in 1905 stores. Walt also kept out mid 20th century sponsors from the 1905 bubble; companies with mod names like INA, GAF, etc. all were kept out of Main Street buildings in the 1950's and 60's. And that grand Opera House was always supposed to offer themed entertainment that rigidly adhered to 1905 offerings, like the Babes In Toyland movie sets from 1961.

              Few people know this, but there is actually a Bavarian castle and an alpine mountain on the edge of a small town in western Missouri. It's near Branson I think.

              Oh, wait, Walt let all of those thematic inconsistencies flourish and exist on his 1905 Main Street USA. What was Walt thinking?! And he even let an American Flag with 48 stars fly on opening day. And even worse, as Alaska and Hawaii joined the Union in '59, Walt allowed the updated Flag with 50 stars to fly on Main Street.

              Walt was a hack. He had no vision.

              Comment


              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                Originally posted by TP2000 View Post
                Few people know this, but there is actually a Bavarian castle and an alpine mountain on the edge of a small town in western Missouri. It's near Branson I think.
                To be fair, I believe the portals/gateways to the other lands are essentially exempt from the rules of Main Street, U.S.A, because they are, in fact, not part of Main Street, U.S.A. Sleeping Beauty Castle is technically part of Fantasyland, NOT Main Street, and just like the Gateway to Adventureland, or the Frontierland Stockade, or the gleaming Spires of Tomorrowland, mark the entrance to those respective lands, the Castle marks the entry to Fantasyland.

                That you can see the Gateways to the lands from Main Street and the Central Plaza is simply the nature of the beast, and is purposeful because it serves to encourage you to enter the themed realms.

                The Matterhorn is iffy though, but still, it is not part of Main Street, U.S.A, therefore does not actually contradict the Main Street show. Sure, sightlines are very important to achieving a believable show, but, well, the Matterhorn was the first Mountain, and served several purposes (Skyway tower cover-up, Holiday Hill cover-up, and adding the Mountain that Walt fell in love with). It's unfair, I guess, but the Matterhorn is basically exempt from theme rules as well.

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                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                  Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                  It's unfair, I guess, but the Matterhorn is basically exempt from theme rules as well.
                  So, what I'm getting from this thread is....

                  If Walt did it on Main Street, it's perfectly fine and the work of a master artist.

                  But if the same thing happened after December, 1966 then it is tawdry hucksterism and the work of clueless executives who have no idea how important the strict adherence to the theme of Main Street USA was to Walt.

                  I think I've got it.

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                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                    Originally posted by Westsider View Post
                    So, what I'm getting from this thread is....

                    If Walt did it on Main Street, it's perfectly fine and the work of a master artist.

                    But if the same thing happened after December, 1966 then it is tawdry hucksterism and the work of clueless executives who have no idea how important the strict adherence to the theme of Main Street USA was to Walt.

                    I think I've got it.
                    Considering that I am calling for the removal of both the Californian flag and the modern American flag, I clearly do not believe that Walt Disney's ideas cannot be improved upon. The nature of Disneyland Resort has changed with the addition of D.C.A., and the objective should be to strengthen both parks, creatively-speaking.

                    Dramatic unities do so.

                    I think of the flags in the same way that I think of Magic Music Days. Walt Disney wanted Disneyland to be a "community center", a place, as he said, where California could be at home and where California could host its guests. D.C.A. has the potential now to fulfill this intention better than Disneyland, and Main Street, U.S.A., ever could. So, in the same way that I think Magic Music Days suits Disney's California better, the Californian flag suits Disney's California better, too.

                    Comment


                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                      Contemporary reality in California, where guests experience the here and now, has a new home in Disney's California Adventure.

                      There's no reason to keep that contemporary reality in Disneyland proper, anymore.
                      Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 10-30-2007, 12:57 AM.

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                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                        Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                        Considering that I am calling for the removal of both the Californian flag and the modern American flag, I clearly do not believe that Walt Disney's ideas cannot be improved upon. The nature of Disneyland Resort has changed with the addition of D.C.A., and the objective should be to strengthen both parks, creatively-speaking.

                        Dramatic unities do so.

                        I think of the flags in the same way that I think of Magic Music Days. Walt Disney wanted Disneyland to be a "community center", a place, as he said, where California could be at home and where California could host its guests. D.C.A. has the potential now to fulfill this intention better than Disneyland, and Main Street, U.S.A., ever could. So, in the same way that I think Magic Music Days suits Disney's California better, the Californian flag suits Disney's California better, too.
                        I'm curious - where and when did he say that? And in what context?

                        The views and opinions you put forth here are strange and almost weirdly fundamentalist. Almost to the point of smacking of purely argument for argument's sake. There appears to be a sort of twisted logic - without reason - to your arguments and opinions about what Disneyland was, is and continues to aspire to be. Your statements confound me.

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                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                          He used "community center" in reference to Disneyland when he also said that it would be, at times, a "museum of living facts". He very much wanted Disneyland to be thought of as a cultural institution in the same way that Tivoli Gardens and the Eiffel Tower are.

                          Walt Disney's ideas for Disneyland were incredibly complex. He knew exactly what he wanted, and I am sure that he considered the flags in Town Square to be an extension of this "community center" concept. The fact, though, is that Disneyland has expanded well beyond the berm, so there is not as much of a need for Disneyland proper to do as much as it once did.

                          Disney's California is full of all sorts of possibilities, but people are going to have to treat both parks as if they are cut from the same cloth, if the California park is ever going to exist in harmony with The Magic Kingdom.

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                          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            He used "community center" in reference to Disneyland when he also said that it would be, at times, a "museum of living facts". He very much wanted Disneyland to be thought of as a cultural institution in the same way that Tivoli Gardens and the Eiffel Tower are...
                            OK... with you on that...

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            Walt Disney's ideas for Disneyland were incredibly complex. He knew exactly what he wanted, and I am sure that he considered the flags in Town Square to be an extension of this "community center" concept.
                            And that...

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            The fact, though, is that Disneyland has expanded well beyond the berm, so there is not as much of a need for Disneyland proper to do as much as it once did.
                            WOAH... I think (hope) here you're refering to things like WDW and DCA, and not just the fact that there are some attractions that have been built out side of the original 1955 berm. And even so, why should anything that's built "outside the berm" - whether literally or figuratively - serve to totally derail Disneyland from it's original intentions?

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            Disney's California is full of all sorts of possibilities...
                            Yes, yes it is. As is Disneyland.

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            but people are going to have to treat both parks as if they are cut from the same cloth...
                            Really? Are they? Why?

                            Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                            if the California park is ever going to exist in harmony with The Magic Kingdom.
                            Why does it have to "exist in harmony" with anything? Does EPCOT "exist in harmony" with any of the other WDW parks? Do they help contextualize each other? I'm not sure they do.

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                            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                              The two parks have nothing to do with each other when it comes to theme. When you are inside of DCA, Disneyland does not exist as another theme park across the esplanade. When you are inside Disneyland, DCA does not exist as a theme park across the way. Of course, some poorly planned sightlines make that hard to believe, but that's the way I see it.

                              Main St. should not change in response to anything that happens in DCA and vice versa.

                              As far as contradictions on Main St. I believe a best effort should be made, but there are some things you either excuse out of necessity or because they are fun. You can't really do anything about modern cash registers in Main St. shops. Things like Mickey Mouse cartoons and Lincoln are fun.

                              Main St. isn't supposed to be a recreation of a 1900s era street. It's only supposed to evoke the feelings of one. This isn't a Civil War reenactment as others have said. I support the California flag and the modern American flag flying above Main St. because it represents our connection to the past. The American flag is planted in the past so to speak. It also allows Disneyland to respond to current events, such as when the flag is flown at half-staff when a president dies.

                              I don't know what I'm trying to say here, except that as pragmatic of an idealist PragmaticIdealist is, he's acting kind of kooky when it comes to Main St.
                              Last edited by Pressler69; 10-30-2007, 01:44 AM.

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                              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                One of the details I like is a photograph in the Baby Care Center that shows Walt Disney as an infant. These small show elements make Main Street, U.S.A. more personal and meaningful.

                                There exists another photograph showing Disney as an adolescent and dressed as a news butcher that would be perfect for Main Street Station. The Main Street, U.S.A. show, in general, needs to focus more on Walt Disney's formative years.

                                Currently, Main Street Station also features images of Walt Disney at the Burbank studios, as well as at his Holmby Hills residence, although a better place for personal pictures and effects may be the Grand Californian Hotel since it, too, needs to relate more directly to Disneyland and to Walt Disney, himself.

                                Ideally, I'd like the Grand Californian to present, through black-and-white photographs mostly, Walt Disney's personal life in California, including the "Lilly Belle" of the Carolwood Pacific Railroad. The hotel has the potential to give guests the feeling of having visited Mr. Disney's private home.

                                While I believe Ward Kimball is deserving of the honor of having a locomotive named after him, I would have preferred rechristening one of the engines at Walt Disney World to do so.

                                Since every locomotive at Disneyland is named after someone associated with the Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe Railroad, I thought the fifth engine should be, as well. "Mike Martin" was the name that immediately came to my mind because he was Walt Disney's uncle.

                                Martin was also an engineer for the Santa Fe, and, whenever he would blow through Marceline, the young Walt Disney met this uncle along the route. He is credited with helping foment Disney's lifelong passion for railroading at this early age, so an engine named after the man would have added one more layer of richness to Main Street, U.S.A.'s storytelling.

                                Each of these details can have their meaning revealed to guests through interactions with hosts and hostesses who are able to literally bring this history to life.

                                The meaningfulness of these details is just so important. A good analog may be the teacup rides that are present in many amusement parks. Without the storytelling that accompanies the Disney version, they are all pointless imitations. Many parks also feature their own main streets. The one at Disneyland, however, exists for a reason.

                                With true creativity, nothing is arbitrary or random, and everything can be explained and justified. Disney used to be known for such imagination. And, the 1923 entrance to Disney's California is a good first step towards reclaiming that lost mantle.
                                Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 10-30-2007, 06:25 AM.

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                                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  One of the details I like is a photograph in the Baby Care Center that shows Walt Disney as an infant. These small show elements make Main Street, U.S.A. more personal and meaningful. .
                                  Agreed, and that's why nearly every window on Main Street is hand painted and leafed with the names of those people who were deeply meaningful to Disney and Disneyland.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  There exists another photograph showing Disney as an adolescent and dressed as a news butcher that would be perfect for Main Street Station. .
                                  Why? The Main Street Station "show" is about Walts love of trains, not being a news butcher.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  The Main Street, U.S.A. show, in general, needs to focus more on Walt Disney's formative years. .
                                  Main Street is not about Walt Disney. It's about the nostalgia for a bygone era.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  Currently, Main Street Station also features images of Walt Disney at the Burbank studios, as well as at his Holmby Hills residence, although a better place for personal pictures and effects may be the Grand Californian Hotel since it, too, needs to relate more directly to Disneyland and to Walt Disney, himself. .
                                  The Grand Californian is a tribute to the great lodges of the National Parks, not a tenuous relationship to Disney and Disneyland. The place for that is *gasp* the Walt Disney Story on Main Street!

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  Ideally, I'd like the Grand Californian to present, through black-and-white photographs mostly, Walt Disney's personal life in California, including the "Lilly Belle" of the Carolwood Pacific Railroad. The hotel has the potential to give guests the feeling of having visited Mr. Disney's private home..
                                  So now you want to totally retheme a $100 million four star four diamond hotel renound the world over for it's stunning National Park Lodge architecture to resemble a 1940's ranch house? Just for a couple of (preferably) black and white photos that they not sully the delicate theme of neighboring Disneyland?

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  While I believe Ward Kimball is deserving of the honor of having a locomotive named after him, I would have preferred rechristening one of the engines at Walt Disney World to do so. .
                                  Is WDW's Main Street somehow LESS sacred to you in theme and function?

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  Since every locomotive at Disneyland is named after someone associated with the Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe Railroad, I thought the fifth engine should be, as well. "Mike Martin" was the name that immediately came to my mind because he was Walt Disney's uncle.

                                  Martin was also an engineer for the Santa Fe, and, whenever he would blow through Marceline, the young Walt Disney met this uncle along the route. He is credited with helping foment Disney's lifelong passion for railroading at this early age, so an engine named after the man would have added one more layer of richness to Main Street, U.S.A.'s storytelling..
                                  A life-long passion that lead him to build the ultimate backyard train set - Disneyland. I sincerely feel after having read many of the biographical works and seen many of the archival films of Walt and his trains, that one of the main reasons behind building Disneyland was to have a bigger train set.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  Each of these details can have their meaning revealed to guests through interactions with hosts and hostesses who are able to literally bring this history to life..
                                  Yes, they could, if you wanted to reach 10 out of the 10,000 guests who pass through the station any given day. OR you could have plaques and informative signs for guests to DISCOVER FOR THEMSELVES.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  The meaningfulness of these details is just so important. A good analog may be the teacup rides that are present in many amusement parks. Without the storytelling that accompanies the Disney version, they are all pointless imitations. Many parks also feature their own main streets. The one at Disneyland, however, exists for a reason. .
                                  That's the most reasonable thing I've read that you've presented so far. Except that with all of your other "demands", you seem to have missed your own point. You seem to miss the reason behind what stories are being told in which places, and to what end.

                                  Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                  With true creativity, nothing is arbitrary or random, and everything is explained and justified. Disney used to be known for such imagination. And, the 1923 entrance to Disney's California is a good first step towards reclaiming that lost mantle.
                                  Disney, as an entity is still known for it's endlessly vibrant and innovative imagination. You just seem to be viewing it with blinders on, seeing only what you wish to see, and what serves your pseudo-intellectual purposes. In thier lack of creativity, your arguments and opinions appear arbritrary and random and nothing is explained or justified. Disney's "imagination" in the past 15 years has been only limited by what thier clients are willing to spend. In the case of the Oriental Land Company, they know they get what they pay for. When Disney is it's own client, they have different financial models and agendas. You can not fault Disney for having no imagination when accomplishments such as Tokyo Disney Sea and failures like DCA are designed and constructed in parallel. Here, you can only fault Disney for not taking RISKS like it used to, not in lacking imagination.

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                                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                    I'm not sure why folks get so riled up over PI's posts, but I can definitely see trends.

                                    One of those trends is that many folks just can't seem to grasp what PI is discussing. When he talks theme and cohesiveness, others see only rides and Amusement Park. Several folks here have stated "DL and DCA are two different parks, with two different themes." Clearly, with the announcement of the DCA changes, the two parks are going to be related. That relationship will be a metaphorical journey of Walt Disney, from his Midwest roots (Main Street) to the fulfillment of his dreams in the Golden State (DCA). This is the context PI is trying to establish. And he's suggesting that if there is going to be a relationship, enhancements to Main Street should make the relationship between the two parks stronger.

                                    Another trend I see is people who get so upset at what PI posts, that they suggest he's just trying to be argumentative. Yes, PI sometimes comes across as condescending (at least to those who feel he's talking down to them personally), but he is almost always the one who is attacked for his views. The labels, such as "fundamentalist," fly frequently in his direction. But to his credit, he never responds to these outbursts, but continues to patiently expound on his ideas to anyone who's willing to invest the intellectual effort to merely consider them, even if they ultimately disagree with him. If some of you would rationally debate PI's arguments--or heck, even try harder to understand them--this thread would be even more interesting than it is.

                                    Now, Main Street is one of my favorite lands (see--PI and I disagree here, for he wouldn't consider MS a "land"). But for all those who claim to not have seen any changes, all I can say to that is either you're too young to remember, or you just haven't seen them. At least one poster nailed the problem, suggesting that most folks just burn through the area on their way to Space Mountain. This is a shame.

                                    There are many changes for the worse that could be reversed. Simple ones, like mantles in the gas lamps. Sure, I know many folks wouldn't even notice. But Walt didn't play to the lowest common denominator. He put details in for those who would notice.

                                    Much of Main Streets gaily decorated rooflines, formed with beautiful wrought iron, have been decimated with light standard view blocks. These should be replaced.

                                    Only one poster to this ten-page thread so far has even mentioned one of the most easiest changes to implement: Get rid of the God-awful pastel color palette, and return Main Street to it's original color palette--every building. These colors were carefully chosen by the original Imagineers, and deserve to return.

                                    Someone else mentioned Center Street. How many out there even know where West Center and East Center Streets are? At one time, they were streets, with signposts! These could--and should--return.

                                    Why can't we have horse drawn surreys like before? And by all means, let's re-implement the lamplighter!

                                    The arguments that state, "Well, the stores all have modern plush and digital cash registers--how authentic is that?" need to be discarded. Obviously, some concessions must be made. No one's going to buy a hoghair toothbrush from the Market House, or a horse harness from a livery stable. But the changes I've noted above can still add to the immersive effect of Main Street. They are enhancements. They won't create a "Colonial Williamsburg" feel (although I do wonder what's so wrong with that?), but they will be details that add to the show. Couldn't those digital cash registers be disguised to look like 19th century versions? Couldn't some classic literature such as PI suggested, maybe with an old Sears Catalog reprint, next to the light wands and plush, add the effect of Main Street?

                                    Anyway, these are just a few ideas. Main Street has definitely changed, and mostly not for the better. It's time to get it back to where it should rightly be.
                                    Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 10-30-2007, 07:23 AM.

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                                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                      Originally posted by composerboy View Post
                                      Is WDW's Main Street somehow LESS sacred to you in theme and function?
                                      Walt Disney World's railroad already has an engine honoring Roger Broggie who was also a Disney employee.

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                                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                        Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                        Walt Disney's ideas for Disneyland were incredibly complex. He knew exactly what he wanted, and I am sure that he considered the flags in Town Square to be an extension of this "community center" concept. The fact, though, is that Disneyland has expanded well beyond the berm, so there is not as much of a need for Disneyland proper to do as much as it once did.
                                        Are you so sure about what Walt wanted when he decided to put the flags in Town Square? Maybe it's because the 1950's were an overly patriotic time in this country and he was just responding to popular taste during that time period (not from a marketing standpoint, but a cultural one). Maybe you're right though -- who really knows?

                                        Comment


                                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                          I was just looking at a map, and I discovered another interesting fact.

                                          The order of the cities along the Grand Canyon Route, from East to West, is: Chicago-Marceline-Kansas City-Los Angeles. That's such a neat coincidence.

                                          The Grand Canyon Route parallels Walt Disney's own life. He kept moving farther and farther West along the same Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe line.
                                          Last edited by PragmaticIdealist; 10-30-2007, 07:38 AM.

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