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  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

    Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
    I was just looking at a map, and I discovered another interesting fact.

    The order of the cities along the Grand Canyon Route, from East to West, is: Chicago-Marceline-Kansas City-Los Angeles. That's such a neat coincidence.

    The Grand Canyon Route parallels Walt Disney's own life. He kept moving farther and farther West along the same Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe line.
    The whole park is based loosely on this theme. Tomorrowland in the east is supposedly an established city -- it would be if it were a city of tomorrow. Frontierland is physically located in the western half of the park. So the park is loosely laid out like America. Established cities of the east giving way to the American Frontier in the west.

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    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

      Originally posted by DisneyIPresume View Post
      What do you want? Stick a letterman's jacket on him and have him perform numbers from the High School Musical movies?
      Is it wrong that I would like that?

      Comment


      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
        I'm not sure why folks get so riled up over PI's posts, but I can definitely see trends.

        One of those trends is that many folks just can't seem to grasp what PI is discussing. When he talks theme and cohesiveness, others see only rides and Amusement Park. Several folks here have stated "DL and DCA are two different parks, with two different themes." Clearly, with the announcement of the DCA changes, the two parks are going to be related. That relationship will be a metaphorical journey of Walt Disney, from his Midwest roots (Main Street) to the fulfillment of his dreams in the Golden State (DCA). This is the context PI is trying to establish. And he's suggesting that if there is going to be a relationship, enhancements to Main Street should make the relationship between the two parks stronger..
        I think it would be a very large mistake to suddenly look at DCA as Disneyland: The Sequel, as you and PI seem to prefer. Yes, they both have a masterplanning feature that functions to gather, funnel and provide essential services and merchandise to guests. Yes, those features are both themed, but in a very different context. Disneyland's Main Street is a general recall of a generic turn-of-the-century small town main street. I think part of the reason that Walt chose that theme as the entry to the park, more than a specific reference to the journey he took to get to that point in his life was that HIS Main Street conveniently provided the exact same types of goods and services (albeit temporally adjusted) that a REAL main street does (where else would you go to purchase dry goods, clothes food, drink and essential services, public restrooms, a bank and security all in one place?). Beyond that, I think it was his love of that nostalgia and a natural inclination as an artist and entertainer to provide the best show possible that lead him to create it in as much detail as was REASONABLE.

        DCA's "main street", while providing the exact same services and serving the same basic function, it serves an additional purpose that Main Street, USA does not. It provides a recall of a very specific place and time, as it directly relates to the life of one man. There is no relationship to the Main Street across the way, other than form and function. It's not a sequel to Main Street USA. If it were, Main Street USA would have to be rethemed to Main Street, Marceline, and specific architectural landmarks and styles would have to be recreated in the same detail as in DCA. THEN you could and should have all of the specific Walt Disney as a child and adolescent materials that PI longs for. But that's not what Main Street, USA is or aspires to be.

        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
        Another trend I see is people who get so upset at what PI posts, that they suggest he's just trying to be argumentative. Yes, PI sometimes comes across as condescending (at least to those who feel he's talking down to them personally), but he is almost always the one who is attacked for his views. The labels, such as "fundamentalist," fly frequently in his direction. But to his credit, he never responds to these outbursts, but continues to patiently expound on his ideas to anyone who's willing to invest the intellectual effort to merely consider them, even if they ultimately disagree with him. If some of you would rationally debate PI's arguments--or heck, even try harder to understand them--this thread would be even more interesting than it is..
        Personally, I have recently taken quite a lot of time out of my very busy schedule to carefully consider and attempt to understand what people like PI and MG set forth in their posts. I then spend an inordinate amount of time composing carefully considered and coherent replies. Often, those replies contain challenges to the poster's reasoning, beliefs and facts. I wish that PI WOULD respond to such "outbursts" as claims of fundamentalism and other challenges, as those reponses would (hopefully) provide further clarification on what otherwise are often incomplete or incoherent expressions of arguments and views. I see nothing wrong with arguments such as these. It's nothing but healthy discourse. No one is attacking (for the most part) each other's character, or using hurtful slanderous language. Maybe it's just me and my thick skin, but it seems to me that many people today are much too sensitive.

        The reason that I take the time that I do to participate in these discussions is in direct correllation to my own passion on the subject. There is little in this world that I love more than Themed Entertainment. For me (and I'll argue endlessly to this point) it is the greatest form of entertainment yet devised. We have gotten to the point in the evolution of this techno-artistic form of entertainment that discussions such as these are essential to the growth and wide-spread understanding of it's theory and practice.

        I too, would love to see more people try to consider PI's views on the subject, as well as my own - which is why I continue to join every discussion that piques my interest. Every discussion thread such as this elevates this Forum from being merely the usual and stereotypical "I LIKE RIDES!!" and "Who LIves CLosest to Disneyland!!? ZOMG" that apparently must exist as well - to something that can be taken more seriously. Wouldn't it be nice to get some recognition for serious discourse instead of merely the former?

        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
        Now, Main Street is one of my favorite lands (see--PI and I disagree here, for he wouldn't consider MS a "land"). But for all those who claim to not have seen any changes, all I can say to that is either you're too young to remember, or you just haven't seen them. At least one poster nailed the problem, suggesting that most folks just burn through the area on their way to Space Mountain. This is a shame.

        There are many changes for the worse that could be reversed. Simple ones, like mantles in the gas lamps. Sure, I know many folks wouldn't even notice. But Walt didn't play to the lowest common denominator. He put details in for those who would notice.

        Much of Main Streets gaily decorated rooflines, formed with beautiful wrought iron, have been decimated with light standard view blocks. These should be replaced.

        Only one poster to this ten-page thread so far has even mentioned one of the most easiest changes to implement: Get rid of the God-awful pastel color palette, and return Main Street to it's original color palette--every building. These colors were carefully chosen by the original Imagineers, and deserve to return.

        Someone else mentioned Center Street. How many out there even know where West Center and East Center Streets are? At one time, they were streets, with signposts! These could--and should--return.

        Why can't we have horse drawn surreys like before? And by all means, let's re-implement the lamplighter!

        The arguments that state, "Well, the stores all have modern plush and digital cash registers--how authentic is that?" need to be discarded. Obviously, some concessions must be made. No one's going to by a hog hair toothbrush from the Market House, or horse harness from a livery stable. But the changes I've noted above can still add to the immersive effect of Main Street. They are enhancements. They won't create a "Colonial Williamsburg" feel (although I do wonder what's so wrong with that?), but they will be details that add to the show. Couldn't those digital cash registers be disguised to look like 19th century versions? Couldn't some classic literature such as PI suggested, maybe with an old Sears Catalog reprint, next to the light wands and plush, add the effect of Main Street?

        Anyway, these are just a few ideas. Main Street has definitely changed, and mostly not for the better. It's time to get it back to where it should rightly be.
        I totally and completely agree with every one of your suggestions and solutions. And the reason that it could not and should not be carried as far as Colonial Williamsburg is that Disneyland is no that type of place. People want to have a certain level of comfort with their surroundings. That's what the book "The Architecture of Reassurance" was about. Take the illusion too far and it becomes disarming. I totally believe that there is indeed a time and place for that, and Colonial Williamsburg is a shining example. But dirt roads, outhouses, unsightly telegraph wires, and goods and services that no one needs or wants would be inappropriate for Disneyland, in the same way that "Rocket to the Moon" didn't ACTUALLY take you to the moon.

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        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

          Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
          I was just looking at a map, and I discovered another interesting fact.

          The order of the cities along the Grand Canyon Route, from East to West, is: Chicago-Marceline-Kansas City-Los Angeles. That's such a neat coincidence.

          The Grand Canyon Route parallels Walt Disney's own life. He kept moving farther and farther West along the same Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe line.
          It's no coincidence. MILLIONS of people were following the same route, through major population centers as Walt, looking for thier own fame and fortune in the West.

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          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

            Originally posted by composerboy View Post
            It's not a sequel to Main Street USA. If it were, Main Street USA would have to be rethemed to Main Street, Marceline, and specific architectural landmarks and styles would have to be recreated in the same detail as in DCA. THEN you could and should have all of the specific Walt Disney as a child and adolescent materials that PI longs for. But that's not what Main Street, USA is or aspires to be.
            I've never suggested that Main Street, U.S.A. not be "everyone's hometown". The reason that this particular hometown is in Middle America at the turn of the 19th Century, though, has to be explained and justified on some level. In so doing, these small details are never going to diminish the universality of the place.

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            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

              Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
              The arguments that state, "Well, the stores all have modern plush and digital cash registers--how authentic is that?" need to be discarded. Obviously, some concessions must be made.
              I do like many or your ideas for things to return and you do make a point. You admit that "some concessions" must be made but apparently the rest of us don't get a say in what/which "concessions" are acceptable?

              I think part of the reason Prag gets the reaction he does is because he states his opinion as if they are facts, uses terms like "Walt evangelized" and what you call "credit for not responding" I call ignoring counter points to his arguement. His claim of "what children want" illustrates perfectly I think what people find offensive. Many of his ideas are actually interesting ones, and I acknowlege them when they are, but to make a statement like "children dont want..." is indeed arrogant in my opinion. As a father of two I would not presume to speak for all children. I am pretty sure I know my own children well enough, but not all the rest.

              It's as bad as Master Gracey trying to claim I was arrogant in calling Prag arrogant because I expressed my counter opinion to something Prag said and then he goes on to shoot down other people's opinions that don't fit his world. Gracey, if you feel Prag is qualified to speak for what all children want today, power to you...I do not and so I said so. Apparently this forum is for opinions expressed only so long as they are approved by you? Not.

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              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                Walt Disney World's railroad already has an engine honoring Roger Broggie who was also a Disney employee.
                He was much more than merely an "employee." He was so honored because he was Walt's friend and companion in love of live steam.

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                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                  I'm back.
                  To those who were wondering, yes I was being sarcastic.
                  Steve, I'm all for sensible improvements of Mainstreet. I do not feel the changes to DCA necessitate a change to Mainstreet UNLESS there is something in Mainstreet that would work better in the new entry to DCA. I think that, exempting basic services, there should be a little in common between the two, we don't want Mainstreet 2.0 across the way.
                  PI, I still haven't received a response to my question. Did Walt Disney not want his characters to appear on Mainstreet so that Mainstreet could be a more accurate depiction of his childhood? I'm pretty sure in old footage both he and Mickey are together on Mainstreet and having a good time. I don't think Mainstreet was ever intended to be a depiction of Walt's childhood, I think it is an homage to his hometown and smalltown America. That's why a lack of focus on the early Walt Disney story, or the introduction of non-Walt related elements that fit the period feel appropriate to me as well.
                  Disneyland was not built as a shrine to Walt Disney, he built it as a family theme park. He wanted everyone to remember their hometowns, their love of childhood stories about the jungle and old west, etc.
                  Now, if you want to make something that joins the two gates in the middle I have NO LOVE for downtown Disney and will happily remove La Brea Bakery to create some icon in the middle of the plaza. If you want to make improve Mainstreet and add more diverse attractions than food and shopping I'm in with that. I just don't think you NEED to make Mainstreet changes because of DCA changes.
                  "It was worth it if you learned something."

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                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                    Along those lines, I think the realization of the original concept of "Edison Square" in the original plans for Main Street would have gone a very long way to help establish it's purpose and help cememnt it's status as being no less a "land" than any other.

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                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                      I do like many or your ideas for things to return and you do make a point. You admit that "some concessions" must be made but apparently the rest of us don't get a say in what/which "concessions" are acceptable?
                      This is the most apt thing said on this entire board. I feel like there are a few people on this board who feel like they are the entrusted guardians of Walt's spirit and that ONLY THEY should have an opinion on what is acceptable/unacceptable use of Disneyland. Sorry, but so far I haven't heard one good argument was to why the DCA improvements call for a mainstreet change, and everytime I try to solicit one I'm ignored in what is apparently a "Noble Silence."
                      "It was worth it if you learned something."

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                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                        Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                        This is the most apt thing said on this entire board. I feel like there are a few people on this board who feel like they are the entrusted guardians of Walt's spirit and that ONLY THEY should have an opinion on what is acceptable/unacceptable use of Disneyland. Sorry, but so far I haven't heard one good argument was to why the DCA improvements call for a mainstreet change, and everytime I try to solicit one I'm ignored in what is apparently a "Noble Silence."
                        This is exactly why I used the term "Fundamentalist." And the biggest problem with fundamentalism is self-rightiousness manifested as arrogance. As anyone who knows me "in real life" will attest - I'm the first person to stand up and admit when I'm wrong and accept the views of others - ONLY when those views are presented in a convincing and irrefutable way.

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                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                          Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                          Sorry, but so far I haven't heard one good argument was to why the DCA improvements call for a mainstreet change, and everytime I try to solicit one I'm ignored in what is apparently a "Noble Silence."
                          What do you consider to be a "good" argument? Many have been made. Sorry if you don't find them up to snuff.

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                          • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                            Okay Steve, please ...

                            Why do the changes to the entryway at California Adventure mean we have to change Mainstreet.
                            Many good arguments have been made, but I have found NONE about this subject. I've asked several times, because I didn't find PI's post informative. I wasn't even bagging him in the beginning (I did that after some other remarks he made) I just want to hear why these changes are linked somehow in his mind.
                            I agree with your earlier post about added more authentic touches to mainstreet. I just don't see why those changes shouldn't be made regardless of the DCA situation. Do we have to wait for the second gate to be improved before we can improve the quality of DL? I don't think so. So I still haven't heard anyone answer this question:

                            WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MAIN STREET, U.S.A. AS PART OF THE D.C.A. REMODELING?

                            I contend nothing, the changes to Mains Street have dothing to do with the DCA remodel. They should be made because we want Main Street to be great, that should have nothing to do with DCA.
                            "It was worth it if you learned something."

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                            • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                              Are people actually arguing against improving Main Street?

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                              • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                Wow, that sucks. I guess since we're going to try to reclaim the early 1900's, us colored folks will have to find our own water fountains and restrooms, huh?


                                Seriously, some people are taking this way too seriously. Disneyland is meant to be fun for the whole family. If the storyline on Main Street is detracting from your fun that much, then maybe you should go somewhere else. Now granted I haven't been to the park since 1992, but c'mon, it's Disneyland! Do you realize how lucky you are to be able to go to the best theme park in the world?

                                God knows how many awesome memories I have of the park and I only wish I could go there as frequently as some of you guys. I know that when I was a kid and visited the park, which was about 5-6 times a year, I never noticed any conflicts in theming or anything of the sort. Most kids don't think about that stuff, or at least I don't think they do.

                                The one thing that needs to be fixed on Main Street is the return of the MSEP.

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                                • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                  Originally posted by seasnake View Post
                                  I just don't see why those changes shouldn't be made regardless of the DCA situation. Do we have to wait for the second gate to be improved before we can improve the quality of DL? I don't think so. So I still haven't heard anyone answer this question:

                                  WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MAIN STREET, U.S.A. AS PART OF THE D.C.A. REMODELING?

                                  I contend nothing, the changes to Mains Street have dothing to do with the DCA remodel. They should be made because we want Main Street to be great, that should have nothing to do with DCA.
                                  OK, I see your point there. I suppose there shouldn't be any correlation between any Main Street improvements and DCA's revamp. Main Street--or any other land--deserves improvement based on its own need.

                                  My reading of PI is that because the two parks will exist as a sort of duality--like two sides of the same coin--that PI wanted to strengthen Main Street's ties with the historic Marceline, and that detail improvemetns might help to strengthen the "Walt Disney" connection.

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                                  • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                    Are people actually arguing against improving Main Street?
                                    I don't think so. I'm not, I'm all for improving Main Street. I'm trying to see the link between DCA construction and Mainstreet. I don't see it. I THINK that PI is saying that Main street should be changed to better reflect where Walt grew up, because the new plaza is the story of Walt's adulthood. I disagree, because I don't think Main Street was meant to be a memorial of Walt's childhood, even if the new park's opening theme is Walt's adulthood. I think Main Street is meant to be everyones hometown, with that homey feel and happy look, not a the Walt Disney childhood story.

                                    Okay, I saw your post above and was typing this while you were responding. Thank-you. I thought that this was what this thread was all about, and hadn't seen anything on it, so I was looking for opinions on the original point of the poster. Thanks Steve.
                                    "It was worth it if you learned something."

                                    Comment


                                    • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                      Originally posted by draybook View Post
                                      Wow, that sucks. I guess since we're going to try to reclaim the early 1900's, us colored folks will have to find our own water fountains and restrooms, huh?
                                      Yep, that's exactly what were saying. <<(sarcasm)

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                                      • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

                                        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                                        I see your point there. I suppose there shouldn't be any correlation between any Main Street improvements and DCA's revamp

                                        My reading of PI is that because the two parks will exist as a sort of duality--like two sides of the same coin--that PI wanted to strengthen Main Street's ties with the historic Marceline, and that detail improvemetns might help to strengthen the "Walt Disney" connection.

                                        So it's come to this. It took 136 posts and a published author to properly distill this argument down to it's basic elements:

                                        "...strengthen Main Street's ties with the historic Marceline, and that detail improvemetns might help to strengthen the "Walt Disney" connection."

                                        All because a totally separate park 300 feet away is recieving a similar feature.

                                        I'd believe that if I hadn't recently read:

                                        Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                        I've never suggested that Main Street, U.S.A. not be "everyone's hometown". The reason that this particular hometown is in Middle America at the turn of the 19th Century, though, has to be explained and justified on some level. In so doing, these small details are never going to diminish the universality of the place.
                                        Now I'm REALLY confused.

                                        Oh, and:

                                        Originally posted by draybook View Post
                                        Wow, that sucks. I guess since we're going to try to reclaim the early 1900's, us colored folks will have to find our own water fountains and restrooms, huh?
                                        Funniest thing I hope to read all day.

                                        Comment


                                        • Re: What Needs to Be Done to Main Street, U.S.A. as Part of the D.C.A. Remodeling?

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