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  • #41
    Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

    Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
    That section sounded more like a justification on why being negative is good.

    Why should people be insulted for actually enjoying something? Because it doesn't match up to someone else's 'standard' they shouldn't be allowed to say they enjoyed something and it was good?

    Labeling is insulting when the label is used in a derogatory way.
    While the labeling I try to stay away from in my own postings when debating theme and attraction quality with other MCers, the principle that Al discussed is an important part of the point-counterpoint which ultimately, I believe, improves the experience for all. Constant praise is as unproductive as constant criticism, and the article (with the exception of the slightly insulting DoM label) seems to express this well, recognizing the role all sides play in the development of the Park, for good or ill (depending on one's viewpoint). I say good for Al.

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    • #42
      Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

      Originally posted by Burnt Toast View Post
      I'm actually very disappointed in Al, but I can see where his over-inflated ego played him into posting the whole DoM thing.

      Basically the way I see it is Al wanted it all to be "you see things my way or you're a DoM, get them my pretties!" regardless of his... good intentions and his attempt at the end of that section to soften what should be seen as an open invitation to flame people that don't have the same ideals as him. He knows that it'll all just boil down to whether you believe "his standards" and that will be the bar set to determine if someone is a DoM or not.
      Oh baloney. People have been called "Disney Apologists" online for many many years now, this isn't just some new concept that Al made up. There are people who think Disney can do no wrong; it's just news that the Disney Apologists are being used to justify mediocrity at the Company itself. There are people (many on this board) who are a-ok with mediocrity just because it is Disney-brand mediocrity.

      What is wrong with wanting Disney to be held to the standards they purport to represent? If you are spending gobs of money on a Disney vacation, your expectations should be high and Disney should EXCEED those expectations (exceeding expectations is something they used to teach CMs).

      That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your opinion, so if you're taking the "DoM" section in that manner then you need to go back and re-read it.

      Wow... his ego knows no bounds, does it? Way to fracture an already splintered community even more... this will not come out good for MiceChat, but what does he care? That's just shady.
      Last I checked, Al doesn't claim to be a bipartisan politician (nor does he exist as a slave to please the MiceChat masses); it is just his opinion of things. Disney Apologists (or DoMs) have always been an annoyance in the online community.

      Even subjective standards can go below acceptable lines. If you go to Lawry's, why should you accept a reheated steak from Denny's, even if the reheated steak is edible?
      I am grateful... grapefruit! ~ Bjork (upon winning Best International Female Artist at the BRIT Awards)
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      • #43
        Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

        Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
        Constant praise is as unproductive as constant criticism
        A balance oft lacking from many. Or the inability to do one or the other simply based on when the item was added to the parks. The oft seen 'old is good, new is bad' gutter.

        Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
        and the article (with the exception of the slightly insulting DoM label) seems to express this well, recognizing the role all sides play in the development of the Park, for good or ill (depending on one's viewpoint).
        I read it as a call to arms to stop posting that things are 'ok' because you're feeding the 'other side' validating 'their' claims. So if you like something - you're not helping things. It was a polarizing action call.
        Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


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        • #44
          Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

          Keeping the DoM label out of it, then it is no different than what is currently taking place on these discussion boards today.

          The mice chat multi page discussion threads usually consist of those who enjoy a certain attraction, their reasons why, and a counter by those who suggest how Disney could/should do it better.

          No rights or wrongs, just a sharing of opinions.

          How is this DoM approach any different? Isn't he just suggesting that if you feel 'Disney could do it better,' then you should make your voice heard.

          Isn't that what already takes place now?

          Isn't that why we have discussion threads?

          Seems very redundant
          "If you build it right, they will come." - Bob Iger

          "I'm not a literary person. As far as realism is concerned, you can find dirt anyplace you look for it. I'm one of those optimists. There's always a rainbow." - Walt Disney



          "I don't care about critics. Critics take themselves too seriously. They think the only way to be noticed and to be the smart guy is to pick and find fault with things. It's the public I'm making pictures for." - Walt Disney

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          • #45
            Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

            Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
            I read it as a call to arms to stop posting that things are 'ok' because you're feeding the 'other side' validating 'their' claims. So if you like something - you're not helping things. It was a polarizing action call.


            This is how I read the article as well. Definitely a call to arms for posters to deprecate those opinions that all is well within the park so that “we need x for the greater Disney good” is the prevailing theme in a particular thread.

            This too can create a false sense of where public support stands. People have different tolerance factors. In addition, one set of opinions versus another does not mean that there is a different level of education on true Disney standards, which I felt has been implied by some (newer members of the boards are more willing to accept things as they are).

            Anyway, if everyone had the same opinions and standards in life, we wouldn’t have much to talk about would we?

            A little piece of heaven

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            • #46
              Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?


              Exactly
              "If you build it right, they will come." - Bob Iger

              "I'm not a literary person. As far as realism is concerned, you can find dirt anyplace you look for it. I'm one of those optimists. There's always a rainbow." - Walt Disney



              "I don't care about critics. Critics take themselves too seriously. They think the only way to be noticed and to be the smart guy is to pick and find fault with things. It's the public I'm making pictures for." - Walt Disney

              Comment


              • #47
                Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                Originally posted by Chernabog View Post
                What is wrong with wanting Disney to be held to the standards they purport to represent? If you are spending gobs of money on a Disney vacation, your expectations should be high and Disney should EXCEED those expectations (exceeding expectations is something they used to teach CMs).
                Other than a few folks online, is there anyone out there claiming that their Disney vacation was mediocre?

                Could it be that if folks say they like something online, they may actually like it?

                Could it be that some things at Disney are not actually mediocre at all?

                I mean it would be easier to dismiss all these horrible people defending Disney if attendance at the parks was not well into the tens of millions and revenues from the parks were not breaking records every year.

                With all these people enjoying the park, who is to say that they are mediocre?

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                • #48
                  Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                  Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                  A balance oft lacking from many. Or the inability to do one or the other simply based on when the item was added to the parks. The oft seen 'old is good, new is bad' gutter.
                  While I try to praise what I do like about the Park, I would admit the majority of my posts are in relation to improvements I would wish to see. Balance is difficult to acheive in any enterprise, it seems.


                  I read it as a call to arms to stop posting that things are 'ok' because you're feeding the 'other side' validating 'their' claims. So if you like something - you're not helping things. It was a polarizing action call
                  Certainly there is a militant air (of course this appeals to a 'reactionary' like me ). I saw it as both a criticism of wholesale approval, but also its 'motivating' influence to those who oppose such practice. Anyway, I liked it. But I'm a 'complainer' .

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                  • #49
                    Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                    Can't wait for the changes to DCA =)
                    Except I actually will miss the California letters...and the golden gate bridge...and even Mulholland Madness and Maliboomer - my kids love them!

                    As for IASW I will miss the ride for the next year! But glad to see it's getting some TLC.

                    And the whole DoM thing was pointless and hopefully won't become a common term - but other than that nothing to be torn up over.

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                    • #50
                      Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                      Pixar is bad, and movie rides too
                      I'm not a DoM so how about you

                      Don't be a DoM.

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                      • #51
                        Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                        DoM: Where Pixar rides and Hanana Montana are good for Disneyland

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                        • #52
                          Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                          Originally posted by angeladlr View Post
                          Can't wait for the changes to DCA =)
                          Except I actually will miss the California letters...and the golden gate bridge...and even Mulholland Madness and Maliboomer - my kids love them!

                          As for IASW I will miss the ride for the next year! But glad to see it's getting some TLC.

                          And the whole DoM thing was pointless and hopefully won't become a common term - but other than that nothing to be torn up over.
                          Well if you go to the Disneyland Resort for the California letters, Golden Gate bridge, Maliboomer and Mulholland Madness, you must be missing the gate to Disneyland park.

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                          • #53
                            Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                            Originally posted by Chernabog View Post
                            What is wrong with wanting Disney to be held to the standards they purport to represent? If you are spending gobs of money on a Disney vacation, your expectations should be high and Disney should EXCEED those expectations (exceeding expectations is something they used to teach CMs).

                            That doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your opinion, so if you're taking the "DoM" section in that manner then you need to go back and re-read it.



                            Last I checked, Al doesn't claim to be a bipartisan politician (nor does he exist as a slave to please the MiceChat masses); it is just his opinion of things. Disney Apologists (or DoMs) have always been an annoyance in the online community.

                            Even subjective standards can go below acceptable lines. If you go to Lawry's, why should you accept a reheated steak from Denny's, even if the reheated steak is edible?
                            I've never read anything from anyone here that said that everything Disney does is good. That's not the point, the point is having a DoM label is a cheating, not logical, and sardonic way to erase the counter-points to your points.

                            Originally posted by ROBONICS95 View Post
                            Keeping the DoM label out of it, then it is no different than what is currently taking place on these discussion boards today.

                            The mice chat multi page discussion threads usually consist of those who enjoy a certain attraction, their reasons why, and a counter by those who suggest how Disney could/should do it better.

                            No rights or wrongs, just a sharing of opinions.

                            How is this DoM approach any different? Isn't he just suggesting that if you feel 'Disney could do it better,' then you should make your voice heard.

                            Isn't that what already takes place now?

                            Isn't that why we have discussion threads?

                            Seems very redundant
                            Lets read what Al wrote:

                            DoMs: Bad for the Brand
                            (Okay, first off, these people are bad for Disney? Way to create a villain.)
                            They pop up for all businesses, big or small, industrial or entertainment. They claim to love the product so much that they feel they have to blindly support it no matter how reasoned or legitimate any criticism of it may be. (Here you are presenting a fact that just isn't the case. While people like that exist, probably, I've never ran into anyone like that here. I think Al may get people defending what he puts down so it seems like that, but point me to the thread that says Disney can do no wrong) Like busy bees, they flit from forum to forum online making life unpleasant for those that even begin to offer an opinion different from their unquestioning "must be positive" view, and Lord help those who feel it can be done better. (Heh.... do you visit the forums? It's mostly the opposite, even if the "busy bees" (Which for those of you schooled in rhetoric can identify as a "dehumanizing" meant to make your opponent completely unworthy of response) were as sugary sweet as you make them see, they are in the minority.

                            These are the Defenders of Mediocrity, or DoMs for short.(Again, give people another reason to segment.) And they are the single most damaging thing that can happen to the Disney brand. (This is another trick of rhetoric. Make the opponent less than human (DoM) and then give them a scary power. It's a logical fallacy.)

                            You've seen their postings: Light Magic? They loved it, it was the best show they never saw because they only heard the MP3 or saw it on YouTube. Rocket Rods? What a great ride, not everything needs to be themed, the red light bulbs were wonderful! Deteriorating Attractions? Walt Disney was wrong about keeping up the exterior, the peeling paint and broken ride elements fit right into the Haunted Mansion theme. DCA? Isn't it swell it's so uncrowded and it has one good ride? Epcot's 25th? Wow, the fans got a slapped together ceremony, and they should be thankful for it and the two boxes of merchandise they offered! etc... etc... etc... (Ah, this is most interesting. "Let's sum up the opposing side using hyperbole and extreme examples. Now, if you liked the Rocket Rods you are also with the group of people who want deteriorating attractions and if you like DCA then you must also love peeling paint. This is exactly one of the faulty logical arguments that Socrates hated about the Sophists. It's lazy and pretends that there is no argument other than yours.)

                            It's well known the Disney company keeps an close eye online, and more than a few times the immediate and unsparingly honest feedback for their latest offerings has resulted in refinements, reworkings and even the rare shutdown of a show or ride.(This is true, but what happens with it is, again, an interesting turn of logic) But the gushing DoM fan postings supporting a product that is of a lower quality than what Disney should offer get monitored too - and more than a few times they have been used to try to convince the higher-ups that customers don't care or notice.(Okay, if the Internet community is part of what helps Disney come to decisions, then wouldn't it naturally be a accurate cross-section of the Disney fan-base? Perhaps it's the excess of political posters and advertisements, but trying to pretend that people, enough people to devote a section of the update to decry (along with a label) are going around trying to keep Disney down... that's bad politics. The Disney web sites offer a real cross section of Disney Fans, and if you don't like what everyone has to say, then use logic and... I don't know... discussion to change their mind, don't do what.. this is..)

                            The people who care about quality at Disney are very encouraged by the sea change in management at the company, from Iger on down. Unlike the latter of the two decades under Eisner, or the 10 years with Pressler there is a lot being done right nowadays. But there are still those DoM postings that get printed out by those more concerned about budgets or cutbacks that worry some of the folks spearheading the renaissance going on right now. (... really? Okay.... so... nowadays, (with the help of Disney sites) lots of changes are being made for the good, but not because they read people who say good things and... what?) Walt Disney World in particular suffers from the incredible amount of damage these DoMs can inflict - those little salvos praising the poorest quality shows or attractions can hold back those who want to improve the offerings out there. (This is the example of how this whole argument is going. the DoMs are blamed for what is wrong with Disney World because they like the things that Al, and others, think is below what it should be. They are not called people, they are given powers to destroy what you love, and they want Disney to be less than it can be.)

                            How can those who care be helped? All they ask is that if you see a DoM posting making excuses for a botched product or service, that you take a few moments to respond to it. Take a minute to post how important the higher standards Disney is usually known for justify their premium pricing, and that the best quality product is important to you. It doesn't need in any way to be a putdown, it just needs to be honest about what can be done better. (I guess you better clarify what you want the message boards to be. There were lots of trip reports after gay days that had nothing bad to say about the parks. Do they belong, or are they more DoMs because they didn't decry the year of a million dreams? And heaven forbid someone like the year of a million dreams.. they just want Disney to fall to a standard below a dog)

                            It can give those who care a weapon (in the form of a counterpoint) in their quest to up the quality of what the Mouse offers. And even DoMs will ultimately benefit by getting a better product that they can gush even more about.
                            (That's very cute)






                            I challenge someone to post threads from these "DoMs" that indicate Disney can do no wrong. I've never seen them. Please.




                            Oh, and just to insulate myself from the "DoM" label: I wish they did more for Epcot's 25th, I think Stitches Escape is a scar to all things good and holy, they need to raise cast member standards and wages, and Thunder Mountain needs some TLC.


                            As a Post Script, I don't think Al wanted to make people like this monsters, or that he purposely put in the false logic in his update, but it is there. I do like most of what Al writes. Yeah, he's a bit of a blow-hard, but that's what makes it entertaining. The only reason I worry about this business is it is illogical and not up to Al's normal standards.
                            Last edited by thejoshualee; 10-09-2007, 01:14 PM.
                            St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                            "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




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                            • #54
                              Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                              Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                              Well if you go to the Disneyland Resort for the California letters, Golden Gate bridge, Maliboomer and Mulholland Madness, you must be missing the gate to Disneyland park.
                              Ladies and gents, I give you: The complete inability to understand someone else's point of view.
                              St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                              "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




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                              • #55
                                Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                Originally posted by Chernabog View Post
                                People have been called "Disney Apologists" online for many many years now, this isn't just some new concept that Al made up. There are people who think Disney can do no wrong; it's just news that the Disney Apologists are being used to justify mediocrity at the Company itself. There are people (many on this board) who are a-ok with mediocrity just because it is Disney-brand mediocrity.
                                On the other side of the coin, there's also groups called "Anal P*******s", "Disney Freaks", or "Disney Fundamentalists" online for many many years now, this isn't just some new concept that disgruntled Cast Members just made up. There are people who think they know what's best for Disneyland and all the Guests who visit her all because they go to the parks every other day or pay $149+ a year for an AP. To these people Disney can do no right unless it's something that they can take advantage of or directly benefit from; it's just news that these groups are being used to justify the growing resentment towards what should be our more dedicated Disney fans that should be respected because of a splinter group within that community's entitlement mentality. There are many people (many on this board) who think that they are a self-proclaimed shining Disney champion and think that they know what's best for all.

                                Works the other way as well.

                                Originally posted by Chernabog View Post
                                What is wrong with wanting Disney to be held to the standards they purport to represent? If you are spending gobs of money on a Disney vacation, your expectations should be high and Disney should EXCEED those expectations.
                                ... and how, pray tell, are you "holding Disney to the standards that they represent" by buying an AP year after year or paying for that park ticket every time you visit? By spending money at the Parks, adding that one click to the turnstile... you aren't holding anyone to anything by taking a back seat and whining on a message board yet opening your wallet freely and giving your money to a company that you feel so horribly about.

                                Look, what makes a message board great is the masses of people that log into it with different ideals, values, and opinions then yours. What you, or in this case Al, feels Disney should do is not always the best thing... lots of times I've seen "good ideas" posted on MiceChat that would only directly benefit APs/locals and not the other market, although small when it comes to the AP/locals market, that Disneyland is also supposed to cater to... the tourists. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that as an AP or a local, you automatically know what's best for the tourists as well.

                                Again, so who's shining gold standard will we be using when we chastise fellow MiceChatters? Al's? That's certainly what he wants. How about yours? Or mine?

                                Look, yah... there are lots of things that any company (including Disney) can do better. I know that first hand, I see it from BOTH sides of the fence in the years that I've been a Disney CM. There have been plenty of decisions and ball-droppings which makes me want to pull my hair out... every company that I've ever worked for has done that though. However, I don't try to purposely single out or chastise folks, whether it be Guests/APs/fellow CMs, if they have a different opinion as me or happens to like something that I don't. Having an open invitation by someone who's respected by the self-proclaimed Disney champions community to get all over someone's biscuits because they have a differing opinion then he does is NOT a good thing for the MiceChat community at all.

                                Speaking of which... where do we draw that line on how far we take this as well? I'm just assuming that this virtual DoM lynching mob would be limited to MiceChat... but it was never stated as such. Are we also supposed to lecture and chastise park Guests when we're at the parks as well? I just came back from a two-week trip to Walt Disney World... I overheard many Guests say how much like they really liked Monster's Inc.: Laugh Factory, Stitch's Great Escape, the Sorcerer Mickey hat, the Leave a Legacy stones, Magical Express, the Disney bus system... heck, I also overheard a few Guests comment that they missed the Spaceship Earth wand. Was I supposed to pull these Guests aside and inform them of their DoM status?

                                Really? Seriously? I'll be sure to remember that when I'm playing the park or on my next trip to WDW. Maybe we should make stickers with the DoM logo and then stick them on people so everyone knows that this person is a Defender of Mediocrity because they don't agree with Al's standard! That sounds like fun!

                                Originally posted by Chernabog View Post
                                (exceeding expectations is something they used to teach CMs).
                                I certainly don't need someone who has never been a CM (please correct me if I'm wrong) to lecture me or make a thinly veiled backhanded comment on what I've been taught to do as a Disney Cast Member with 10+ years of service that has absolutely no clue what I do or how I operate when I work a shift at the Parks. I try to exceed expectations everyday... but sometimes I can't meet the expectations of some of my Guests (I can't move mountains, so to speak) but I do what I can when I am able to. For instance, I have more freedom to play around/chit-chat with Guests and their kids at Greeter then I do at Load or Belts where it's all serious business (safety first!)... but even then in those safety positions, I still take my "Role in the Show" by using themed phrasing and the like. Again, I do what I can when I am able to and when it is warranted... sometimes I fail, sometimes I succeed. I certainly hope that in my years that I've worked there I've succeeded more then I've failed.

                                Seeing how I did go through Traditions and training again recently (not more then six months ago)... they still do teach the core values and ideals of old-time Walt, yet also warn potential Cast Members some of the hardships of being a Cast Member as well (like working during vacation periods, scheduling, hours, etc. etc.). They know this coming in, yet some of these new Cast Members still "fail"... why is that? Is it all entirely Disney's fault like some of you guys make it out to be or does the level of values and work ethics of the kids coming into the working world now have something to do with it as well?

                                ... but you wouldn't know the answer sitting and making catty comments from the sidelines, would you?
                                Last edited by Burnt Toast; 10-09-2007, 01:33 PM.
                                Burnt Toast
                                The Magic Begins With Me...! 8:P

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                                • #56
                                  Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                  Originally posted by thejoshualee View Post
                                  Lets read what Al wrote:

                                  DoMs: Bad for the Brand
                                  (Okay, first off, these people are bad for Disney? Way to create a villain.)
                                  The title of the entire article didn't help either... "Dead or Alive?"

                                  Nor all the little comments in the daily postings leading up to the article's launch. I seem to recall one of them saying something to the lines of "which side are you on?".

                                  With that, I can't help but feel that he chose "Dead or Alive?" as the title of his entire article based on the DoM editorial.

                                  If Al wanted to inflate his ego some more with shock value... he certainly succeeded. Too bad it'll come to the expense of the Disney fan community.

                                  Regardless of how Al tries to disguise the fact that he wants his fanatical army to chastise folks that have a differing view then his, everything leading up to the articles release and the title of the article itself screams otherwise.
                                  Last edited by Burnt Toast; 10-09-2007, 01:10 PM.
                                  Burnt Toast
                                  The Magic Begins With Me...! 8:P

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                                  • #57
                                    Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                    I have to add that if you don't criticize Al's articles then you don't want him to improve. You are letting his standards erode and only those of us who are willing to point out where he is wrong love him the right way and want to hold him to the standards we expect.


                                    "I miss the (Disneyland) of yesteryear that only existed in the minds of us Republicans"
                                    --Ned Flanders (with some altercation)
                                    St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                                    "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




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                                    • #58
                                      Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                      -0-
                                      Last edited by Asterix; 10-09-2007, 01:27 PM. Reason: Never mind.

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                                      • #59
                                        Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                        Applause for Burnt Toast.

                                        As far as teaching Cast Members the values, they still do that several times during training. Traditions still focuses on the Magic and founding philosophies of Walt & co. They're very selective about who they choose for trainers, as they won't pick someone who doesn't constantly uphold the SERVICE model.

                                        You can only teach the willing, and it happens in every workplace. I assure you, those who don't feel like upholding the magic will find themselves leaving the company quickly, as they realize they can be morose for more money somewhere else.

                                        And oops.... I actually like the Rocket Rods... guess that just invalidated my whole post.

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                                        • #60
                                          Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

                                          Originally posted by thejoshualee View Post
                                          I have to add that if you don't criticize Al's articles then you don't want him to improve. You are letting his standards erode and only those of us who are willing to point out where he is wrong love him the right way and want to hold him to the standards we expect.
                                          Good point!
                                          Burnt Toast
                                          The Magic Begins With Me...! 8:P

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