10/9: Dead or Alive?

[Chernabog]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

The Disney Fan community has had almost no impact on the decisions made at Disney - and now it seems like the community is self destructing.

The truth is that the fan community and the internet posters have no relevance on any decisions being made at Disneyland - the only thing that matters are the millions of people who actually pay money to visit the parks.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::l mao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Oh, that's funny. Since when did you start working for the Mouse?

[bigwavedave]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

You Know What If A Small Company Like In-out Can Start Their Employees At Around $9.00 To $10.00, Than I Think A Hugh Company Like Disney Can Do The Same. I Agree With Al They Would Get A Lot Better Quality Employee If They Increased Wage. In And Out Has An Extremely Low Turn Over Rate For Fast Food.
Disneyland Don't Be Cheap!

[SimpTwister]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Re: California sign -

Let it go. It's obsolete, and it's huge. There's no place for it on Disney property.

Maybe Disney could donate it to the state - I could see those letters welcoming people into the state along a major freeway. That might be kind of cool.

[SparkyLD]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Ok, I really dont hope you think that the World of Color show is going to be run and controlled by techs. Fantasmic has a tech staff that watches over the show and cues up certain things, but the majority of the show is run on SMPTE Timecode, as most large scale Disney productions are. If you are saying there are going to be techs pushing go and cueing up stuff, you are surely wrong. No one with a sane mind would do that. I have run lighting for shows and concerts with upwards of 900 cues or more, we use either the go button, MIDI or SMPTE timecode. Illuminations is run via computers and uses SMPTE timecode tied to the audio track. Just like Remeber and Fantasmic do. Shows can even be run off of Ethernet now, or even RadioDMX. I can surely tell you there is not a tech sitting in front of a board pressing GO for lighting for fantasmic and Remember.

[bigwavedave]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Than Maybe The Could Move It A little Off To The Side And That Way The Sign Would Be Out Of The Way.

[patch]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

While I wholeheartedly appreciate all the time, dedication and work Mr. Lutz puts into his two websites and his articles, I, too (like many others), walked away from today's particular article feeling a bit disappointed, even betrayed. I understand Mr. Lutz owes nothing to any of us, considering he knows but only a few in everyday, real life, and I read his articles knowing it's a small and simple luxury of mine that a man whom I've never met could care so much about one company, one brand, to share his knowledge with myself and, further, thousands of people all over the world on a monthly basis. However, as a so-called "Disney Watchdog," (as many mainstream news outlets refer to him as when often quoting his articles), I feel he has a repsonsibility, even obligation, as the undoubtedly influential person he truly is to the online Disney community. A responsibility to support the community that has brought him much of his popularity and success. And today, I feel he unintentionally lost the respect of a small faction of that community.

[bigwavedave]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I second that, but I do agree on cast member salaries starting them out at $9.00 to 10.00 and hour would not kill DLR. I do agree with him whole heartedly.

[mrfantasmic]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Ok, I really dont hope you think that the World of Color show is going to be run and controlled by techs. Fantasmic has a tech staff that watches over the show and cues up certain things, but the majority of the show is run on SMPTE Timecode, as most large scale Disney productions are. If you are saying there are going to be techs pushing go and cueing up stuff, you are surely wrong. No one with a sane mind would do that. I have run lighting for shows and concerts with upwards of 900 cues or more, we use either the go button, MIDI or SMPTE timecode. Illuminations is run via computers and uses SMPTE timecode tied to the audio track. Just like Remeber and Fantasmic do. Shows can even be run off of Ethernet now, or even RadioDMX. I can surely tell you there is not a tech sitting in front of a board pressing GO for lighting for fantasmic and Remember.

I don't think he meant that.
As for World of Color, I'm not sure what I think about it. Water shows are nice and all, but do you see people waiting 3 hours for the Bellagio water fountains?
It just seems a little empty, and certainly in no position to displace the full theatrical effort that is Fantasmic!
The pyro is an essential element to the magic of that show, as are the numerous performers on the stages. I hope the concepts are showing something very strong, because even a Waltzing Waters display gets old with only water and light.

[SparkyLD]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I second that, but I do agree on cast member salaries starting them out at $9.00 to 10.00 and hour would not kill DLR. I do agree with him whole heartedly.

Well thats untrue. My friend just got hired into POD a few weeks ago and his starting wage is $9.40. He got casted as one of the rhino performers.

[Darkbeer]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Here is something I posted on another board (slightly edited for this board)

OK, let's talk about Blue Sky Disney, Kevin Yee, The Disney Blog and others who see some serious issues at WDW and elsewhere.

But it is not just one person, or one website saying that there is a major change at WDW, and that is now focusing much moire on the SHORT term than the long term (quantity versus quality). A lot of folks that Al Lutz talks to (employees of the Walt Disney Company is some capacity, some in high positions) are complaining and bitching at him (basically voicing their frustrations) due to the change in attitude.

Based on what I read, all he is saying is that if you see things slipping, or not of the quality that you normally expect of Disney, then say it.

Heck, there are folks here at this board that I pretty much ignore their posts, you don't have to be rude, or call someone else a "............." (fill in the blank using your own terms). Just say I found that it wasn't Disney quality, it was more like something I would find at Six Flags/Cedar Fair/Universal/Busch. Disney used to be "above the bar", and the goal of many folks, both that work at Disney and their fans is that the old standard returns. (And yes, within reason, you do need to make a profit, on the other hand, if you spend a bit more to begin with, you can make more money overall...)

Basically state YOUR opinion, and ignore the DoM's.....

Let folks know what YOU think and don't respond the the "bait"

I can see the "Church Of AL Lutz" term coming back out, that was used and many other websites the last few years. IGNORE IT!

Lets folks know what you LIKE about Disney, but also let know what you DON'T like. Speak up and let ALL your opinions be known, and not ignore the ones that point out places that Disney could improve.

[capgoat]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I hate to say it, but I feel that I may be a DofM. I read through these posts after I read the article, and I think that I just SAY I like new things, because I know bitching about them WON'T really change anything. For instance, I truly miss, with all my heart (sadly, and to the dismay of my embarrassed husband) the Peoplemover. But my favorite ride (one of) is Indiana Jones, and a few months before that ride opened, they closed Peoplemover (which had problems that they couldn't spend the money to fix). Am I defending mediocrity when I say I love I.J.? What is frustrating to me is that I feel a balance in Disney parks. For every good thing that they do, the 50th fireworks spectacular, there is something half-a**ed done as well, (fill in blank with one of many crappy things). But the thrill and magic of the park, overall (Disneyland, still the happiest place on earth, to me) cancels out things that aren't very good. Strangely, the parks are busier and busier, even with all of the mediocrity (and it's there around every corner), and there is no end in sight to the love people have for the parks. Al, (your postings are always awesome) I wish that I could join the cause.

Another thing-could they PLEASE pay cast members more!!!??? It is utterly devastating: $8 dollars an hour. They, the cast members, have to deal with the worst situations. Esp. when it costs $66 dollars for a single admission ticket, $56 for kids, and there's something like 45,000 people who visit on a Saturday? Even with all of the overhead costs is there no way they can swing a few dollar an hour raise? Obviously they DON'T want employees who care. They must have somehow figured out that the way they are currently "handling" the employee situation saves money over simply upping the starting wage, even with all of the training costs. I would be interested to see the comparison of Disneyland turnover v. Walmart, Target, and other known corporate-giant offenders. Again, the sub-par service is not deterring the attendance, therefore, it will remain the same I imagine. Like with most things in America, only the most expensive places, i.e. fine dining, Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's, Health spas, etc., are where the service levels will be the highest. Although I thought a $66 dollar ticket WOULD warrant that.

[k_peek_2000]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

not the best lutz update. but thats alright.

[basx]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Super artical! I love it!

[MrLiver]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Based on what I read, all he is saying is that if you see things slipping, or not of the quality that you normally expect of Disney, then say it.

People have been saying it for years, and will continue to express their displeasure for years to come, I'm sure.

But the old adage is true: if you don't like it, don't go. As long as people keep showing up at the gates, they're obviously doing something right.

This whole DOM argument really comes off as a group of fans who are desperately trying to prove that they are still relevant, by attacking the opposition - all the while being angry at the general public at large for not acknowledging them.

If you really believe that Disney has less quality than they did before, and you really believe they are producing an inferior product, than don't support them anymore. If the money dries up, Disney will change.

Until then,there's no amount of whining on the internet that will change the park's direction. It's all academic at this point.

[Omnispace]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Perhaps I missed it somewhere in the article, but is there some consistent theme that is guiding all these proposed changes to DCA?? I read earlier that DCA might portray an early 20th Century California that greeted Walt Disney when he came out this way. But then where do The Little Mermaid, Monsters, and Cars Land fit into all this? ...and did Walt Disney really go on white water expeditions?? It would be interesting to read what current direction WDI is taking....

[CaliforniaAdventurer]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

What, you never heard of Walt Water Expeditions.

[MollyTrolly]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

In relation to the Little Mermaid ride, the DVD version is out of sequence in several places. I woudl have to watch it again to see which parts are our of place but I remember there being several, I think it had something to do with when you "went under water" and when you came back up and making that work. Hopefully they will change that so everything is in the right order from the story.

[animagusurreal]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

(Haven't read the whole thread yet...)

Okay, I have to say that everyone is entitled to their opinion, quality can be highly subjective, and there may be people who actually liked Light Magic (I never saw it) or who think that The Little Mermaid is a perfect thematic fit for DCA. Labelling is not generally a good idea.

On the other hand, I defy anyone - even the staunchest defenders of DL's Pooh dark ride - who watches a YouTube video of Pooh's Hunny Hunt at Tokyo DL to say that Disney didn't totally cheap out on our Pooh ride.

And, there seem to be those who continually support management no matter what they do and tear down anyone who suggests that it could have been done better.

These are the kinds of comments that came to mind when I read the "DoM" section of Al's article:


1. "Nobody knows what Walt would have done."


This one is actually true. However, I think we can safely speculate that Walt liked quality and innovation.



2. "Management is just doing their jobs, and you have no right to criticize them because they have MBA's and you don't."


When you come to work for an entertainment entity with a huge and intensely devoted fanbase, you have to understand that that's part of the job. Otherwise, they could go work for a company that makes toothpaste or lug nuts or alluminum foil (though knowing the internet, there are probably forums for those, too )

Also, it would seem that at least some of these execs. who like money but may not like Disneyland as much as we do might benefit from our opinions. And an MBA does not make you an infallible deity.



3. "Only Disneyland fans care about this stuff, and they don't really count. "The Masses" who pay Disneyland's bills will be satisfied with whatever Disney gives them - in fact, they prefer what you call 'mediocrity.'"


The public didn't want a Disneyland before Walt introduced it. Walt's own friend Art Linkletter said that he thought "nobody's going to drive all the way out here to throw balls at a target." That's what we would have wound up with if Walt had simply given the public what they already wanted.
It was Walt, the original hardcore Disneyland fan, who wanted a Disneyland. He is quoted as saying, "I would prostitute myself for it."

Walt had to get on television and show people what he was planning, and then they wanted it.

There's nothing wrong with giving "the masses" what they already want, but you can also give them something they don't want yet, but will if you do it well enough and then let them know about it.



4. "If you don't like Disneyland, then don't go there! You're supporting the current management, so it's your own fault."


Obviously, most of us like Disneyland. Just because we criticize a few things doesn't mean we don't like it. Also, whether or not one person goes to Disneyland is not going to have the financial impact to change Disneyland management a bit. "Oh, I see Brent hasn't gone to Disneyland this year - we'd better change our policies."

Also, Disneyland is a big place. We can still like some parts of it, and not like others.



5. The "Destitute Disney" Defense - "Disneyland is too inexpensive to go to, American tourists don't spend 'enough' money on souvenirs, etc."

Disneyland is seeing record numbers. I'm pretty sure they're raking in the dough. Not to mention that when the park began, it was tied to a little company called WED which subsisted on Walt Disney renting out his name to Walt Disney Productions, which at the time was little more than a movie and TV studio. Then, to open the park, Walt had to mortgage everything "including my family" as he said. Today, DL is tied to one of the world's largest and most powerful entertainment corporations. If anything, they should be financially able to do more than Walt ever dreamed, not less.



6. "The Fantasyland dark rides are no better than new additions, like BLAB."

The Fantasyland dark rides are also decades old with charm and nostalgia on their side - and I still think they need more AA's, too! But shouldn't the latest rides seem more advanced than the older ones?




7. "Every ride ever built at Disneyland has been based on a movie - nothing has changed."


Not true. The Jungle Cruise may have been inspired by the Bogart-Hepburn film The African Queen, but it's not The African Queen: The Ride. There are no Bogey and Hepburn AA's. It's the Jungle Cruise, it's its own entity. Likewise The Matterhorn is not Third Man on the Mountain: The Ride. Prior to the opening of Star Tours, there were few attractions outside of Fantasyland that were directly based on movies (the only two that I can think of are The Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse, and the original Sluefoot Sue's Golden Horseshoe, which I assume was based on the Disney cartoon Pecos Bill.) There's nothing wrong with film based attractions, but saying that Imagineering can design nothing but them is like telling the most talented screenwriters in the world that they're not allowed to write anything but remakes (or, if you prefer, adaptations).



8. "As long as people keep coming to Disneyland and the park keeps making money, that proves that management is doing everything right."


Current management has quite a foundation to build on, and while they can take credit for recent additions and upkeep of the park, they can't take all the credit for the legacy of Disneyland, the lands and key attractions that were put in place decades ago. So no, they haven't completely torn that apart yet, IMHO. But I believe that there are those who would. Also, why does everything have to be from a completely business POV? Can't Disney afford to do a few things for quality's sake?





I speculate that at least some of these people are:

1. Executives themselves, if not ones who actually work for Disney. It's natural that they would sympathise more with other executives, just as I sympathise more with the artists at WDI because I myself am an artist.

2. Using reverse psychology. Purposely trying to get their fellow Disney fans riled up to make a point to the Disney Company.

[mycroft16]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

In relation to the Little Mermaid ride, the DVD version is out of sequence in several places. I woudl have to watch it again to see which parts are our of place but I remember there being several, I think it had something to do with when you "went under water" and when you came back up and making that work. Hopefully they will change that so everything is in the right order from the story.

If you watch the audio commentary to the DVD Tony Baxter explains why those changes were made. They are very good, very valid reasons.

[penguinsoda]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Ok now I see at least three for saving the sign. Maybe one of you computer Savy bloggers could signature campaign to help save the sign. It would just be a big shame to remove the CALIFORNIA sign. Sometimes these petetions work out the TV show Jerico was saved from being canceled by an online petition. Keeping the sign would not be a hugh expense, so I think if there is enough support Disney would keep it. I really don't see what Al has against it. THe sign adds character.

Again..... Al has nothing personal against the sign. Heck, for all I know he LOVES the silly thing. You keep referencing to the fact that its Al's fault that Disney is taking out the sign. If only Al had that much power over the suits at TDA....

The Disney Fan community has had almost no impact on the decisions made at Disney - and now it seems like the community is self destructing.

The truth is that the fan community and the internet posters have no relevance on any decisions being made at Disneyland - the only thing that matters are the millions of people who actually pay money to visit the parks.

Don't bet on it. We've had this discussion on this board before over the years. They most certainly do watch the net, we've seen posted jobs for just such a position, and its my understanding that there have been "high ranking" Disney people who have meet some of the more prominent members of MiceChat and they DO know who we are.