10/9: Dead or Alive?

[MouseGoddess]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I hardly post here at all. Something has to really move me to get me to commit my thoughts for everyone to see. BUT, I went to DL and CA in Feb. of '06. They had just opened Monsters', Inc. I bet a lot of you like it. I think it's putrid! And I used to be a staunch defender of all things Disney. I even have a Disney web site. And I still love Disney, just not ALL of it, like I used to. So, I guess I'm an ex-DOM!

But truly, the parks in Anaheim are going downhill. And it all started with Paradise Pier. From the first time I saw what they were doing during the construction, I knew it would fail. Heck, if people wanted to go on things like that they could go to Magic Mountain!
And going back a few postings, to the one about the lack of security. This is something else that really got me the last time I was at DL. My DH and I were leaving the Magic Kingdom, waiting to get on the tram. Now, I've been getting on and off the trams in Anaheim and Orlando since 1975. Never had a problem. But this time, as I stepped onto the first step up, this HUGE (tall and big, both) guy in his late teens, early twenties, jumped up there and nearly knocked me off the step! I said, "Excuse me", he just stood there, pushing me. I raised my voice and said again, "EXCUSE ME!", and shoved past him. ( I won't be bullied!) He said something to / about me I won't repeat and my husband who was behind him spoke up and they got into an argument right there ON the tram! It went on all the way to the parking area! My point is, there was NO SECURITY. It could have gotten really dangerous, but turned out this big bullier of women was a chicken when faced by a man and took off the minute the tram stopped! But, really, where was security? I was shocked there was none.
But then, I'm also horribly shocked and saddened by the news that they're "tagging" the employee areas. So sad.............

[Pressler69]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

As to your thread, I say, Meh (I say that a lot), it's "off-season," you get what you pay for, etc.

This holds true for the Disney owned parks, but not every Disney park.

At Tokyo Disneyland they don't punish you for going in the off-season. The parks are open until 10PM every single night (trains generally stop running at midnight and I think that's why it's not open that late) and big shows like BraviSEAmo, Dreamlights (their version of the electrical parade) and Mythica are all performed even on weekdays.

This concept is all but lost on the American parks, where you pay the same amount for admission but get less entertainment. TDR admission is actually cheaper than the American parks on top of that.

[pj4life]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Kevin Smith and Scott Mosier just talked about this article in the latest SModcast. Definitely worth a listen and for adult ears only.

[sediment]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

As to your thread, I say, Meh (I say that a lot), it's "off-season," you get what you pay for, etc.
(This doesn't apply to the June picture, which I can't see at the work PC.)
Also, I can't be sure that this was a trend, with only two data points. I don't like it if it is, though. Maybe the big equipment couldn't be used with walls nearby.
What it does seem to show, though, is that large parts of the park should be refurbished at the same time, instead of small parts here and there as necessary. Riverbelle needs a rehab? Then do a large part of Frontierland around it. And put the whole park on a long-term schedule, with Imagineers in teams in charge of plussing their section.

[Mac Daddy]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

The whole DoM thing... Oh, Boo Hoo. People don't agree with you? Create a label that automatically discounts not only their opinions, but also the way they live their lives. And you created the term yourself? Very clever, but, to quote my nine year old niece "Pah-Leeze" Two problems with the DoM term.

1. As stated before, it is a label that automatically takes the opposing viewpoint and neutralizes it with little more than a flippant remark. Not to be dramatic, but this is the same type of response that other derogatory terms are created for. No one supports chipped paint, garbage on the ground, or spectro-magic. But now if someone says "Hey, I like the Maliboomer." They must be a DoM and also support chipped paint and other crap. The logical numbness is staggering.

2. It's elitist, sour grapes, and whiny all at once. If a journalist is going to make observations and label them as "good" or "bad" (which are relative terms anyway) they have to live with and expect that people will disagree with them. instead of calling them names, look at the aguments, throw away the piddly (in your opinion) ones and address the rest in a reasonable and logical way.


I read every update on Miceage, and have for over two years now. I sometimes agree, often disagree, but this is the first time I was.... I don't know.... disappointed.

Seriously, I like reading the updates, I rarely comment, but I felt it needed to be said. With that, everyone may ignore the ramblings of this obvious DoM and return to life.

Okay...I know this is a month old and probably no one is reading anymore, but I would just have to disagree with Tgel on this one, which is weird because usually I find myself agreeing with him...or laughing...one of the two.

However, in this case, I would say I'm pretty far on the other side of the fence. I think what Al has in mind by using the name "DOM" can be seen in a recent thread I started just before this update came out...

http://www.micechat.com/forums/showt...light=bad+show


I was really surprised at the...um...energy....I would almost use the term "ferociousness" at which people jumped in to defend the idea of doing landscaping, sanding, waterpressure blasting using loud aircompressors, etc, etc, during park operating hours. My question was predicated on not having observed THAT much activity and noise in the park, unless it was behind a partition and out of view of park guests. In a sense, these individuals were defending Disney on what seemed to be a clear step backwards in terms of presentation compared to what I recalled not to long ago.

I think Al ruffled a few feathers by stating that there are SOME individuals who jump to the defense of the Disney company REGARDLESS of what we as guests/consumers feel we are losing, be it shorter park hours, a half ***ed second park with off the shelf rides, etc, etc. I think Al's encouragement here was to tell the Disney company, with as loud of a collective voice as possible, that we want them to keep their standards high.

"It's good enough" vs. "Are you people out of your minds!?" If we all agree that it's good enough, NOTHING will improve. But if enough of us yell and scream, or....don't attend a park because we think it's a half day park, etc, etc....eventually someone will notice. With ONE BILLION dollars going into DCA now, SOMEONE noticed that the park was losing money, and I feel that we, along with the rest of the Disney online community, had something to do with that.

Having said that, I would not CALL someone a DoM. But I think it IS good to ask ourselves if that is really what we are.

One other thing: If enough people around Eisener had the cajones to stand up to him and say "You CAN'T be serious" about DCA when it was first introduced, I imagine we probably would have ended up with something that wasn't needing a Billion dollar makeover just a few years into it's operation. If we think something sucks, I say we say it loud and say it proud.

[DisneyMickey]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

So Al, when do they really start construction? PLEASE have an update tomorrow!!! I am dying here.

[mrfantasmic]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Leno just used the "its a small world" story in his show.

[SciFi96]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

The whole DoM thing... Oh, Boo Hoo. People don't agree with you? Create a label that automatically discounts not only their opinions, but also the way they live their lives. And you created the term yourself? Very clever, but, to quote my nine year old niece "Pah-Leeze"

Two problems with the DoM term.

1. As stated before, it is a label that automatically takes the opposing viewpoint and neutralizes it with little more than a flippant remark. Not to be dramatic, but this is the same type of response that other derogatory terms are created for. No one supports chipped paint, garbage on the ground, or spectro-magic. But now if someone says "Hey, I like the Maliboomer." They must be a DoM and also support chipped paint and other crap. The logical numbness is staggering.

2. It's elitist, sour grapes, and whiny all at once. If a journalist is going to make observations and label them as "good" or "bad" (which are relative terms anyway) they have to live with and expect that people will disagree with them. instead of calling them names, look at the aguments, throw away the piddly (in your opinion) ones and address the rest in a reasonable and logical way.

I completely agree. Its nice to know that peple arent allowed to shre their opinions, or disagree with people who are negative.

I also think that people are tired of the constant badmouthing of WDW.

I look forward to the updates, but I have to say that I am growing a little tired of all of the negativity.

[Cyette]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I find it amazing that anyone would defend people doing drugs in the parks. That's what Uncle Walt wanted when he started the happiest place on earth, right? A total lapse of morals and no regard to laws.
I'm with you, DevilDucky.
And what an outstanding article....

[a-mad]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

OK, I just got back from 12 days overseas... so I'm just catching up on Al's article... and didn't have time to look at the 21 pages of responses - so I apologize if this has already been discussed, but...

No mention of a Villians overlay to Screamin' - nor one in the last update on the DCA overhaul. I'm suspecting this is now dead? I brought up the question last time, too - but heard no response. I'm assuming, then, that the only changes to Paradise Pier are the following:

Toy Story Midway Mania (and related theming)
The extraction of Maliboomer
The extraction of Route 66 and Golden Dreams, replaced with Little Mermaid omnimover
Disney's World of Color (and related changes to viewing areas)

Is that the list?

[The Shadoe]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Regarding the Small World... I actually like the "flooded look"... I am surprised it is referred to as being "gloomy".

[rgrant999]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

You can think whatever you want to about the movie, but generally speaking it'll either be a good movie, a bad movie, or have mixed reviews when you take everything into account.

Had not thought of that - thank you for the clarification.

[Pressler69]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I just saw a movie today, but I will hold off having an opinion on it until there is a poll here on MiceChat or one of the columns tells me to hate it or love it.

You can think whatever you want to about the movie, but generally speaking it'll either be a good movie, a bad movie, or have mixed reviews when you take everything into account.

[rgrant999]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

[quote=Pressler69;2234654]

Not so.

I stand corrected - people's personal enjoyment and perceptions of entertainment offerings are not subjective, they are simply the outcome of the majority of posters here.

I just saw a movie today, but I will hold off having an opinion on it until there is a poll here on MiceChat or one of the columns tells me to hate it or love it.

[Pressler69]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Generally true in your opinion, I know LOTS of people who disagree with you, myself included.

There are always exceptions to the rule.

Why is it so hard to understand that we all have different tastes, we may share an interest in the parks, but can enjoy different things???

I just said there is nothing wrong with enjoying any of those things. I never said you can't enjoy them and you shouldn't pay attention to anyone who bashes you for enjoying them. I like Mulholland Madness because I like wild mouse coasters. But the general consensus is that it's not very "Disney" and should probably be dismantled and removed.

Look at it the other way. What if someone had said that the Haunted Mansion or Pirates were generally considered to be mediocre and boring attractions that should be taken out of Disneyland? Isn't that generally untrue? Though some people, many people, thousands upon thousands of people might hold that opinion, those attractions are in fact Disney classics.

DCA is a mediocre theme park. Though you may enjoy it and though I may enjoy parts of it, all the evidence, past and recent events, and word of mouth support that statement.

[MegaDisney]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Not so. There is a general consensus that DCA, the Rocket Rods, Light Magic, etc. were all mediocre Disney products.

DCA is a half-day theme park with little to do and see.

Splash Mountain was a great addition.

None of these statements are facts, but they are generally true.

Generally true in your opinion, I know LOTS of people who disagree with you, myself included.

Why is it so hard to understand that we all have different tastes, we may share an interest in the parks, but can enjoy different things???

I am tired of people making the assumptions they are making.

[Darkbeer]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

I found the perfect DoM letter while reading this week's OC Weekly, but not talking about Disney, but a totally DIFFERENT subject, so a perfect example of what a DoM (IMHO) does and doesn't relate to any specific user at a Disney related website...

WARNING: Note, you might find a few adult language words in the following link, but not in the letter I am quoting....

http://www.ocweekly.com/columns/letters/letters/27876/

GIMME A DAYBREAK

That was one mean and awful article [Rich Kane’s “‘Only in New Jersey!’ And other important ‘local’ stories on Daybreak OC,” Oct. 5]!! You should be ashamed. How can you put down Daybreak OC? Let’s not forget you are part of Orange County! Your putting down that show will devalue all Orange County publications.

Your newspaper is no LA Times, OC Register, or Washington Post!! Instead of you being classy about what is wrong with the station, you seem to be pretty harsh toward the male anchor at Daybreak. He seems to do well.

I’m in the Los Angeles news business, and I tell you there is a lot of pressure in TV news, let alone starting a network from scratch. I could say the La Palma package was not that good, but Pete, Nancy and Judy are solid, and they are doing great. Plus, the show promised world headlines as well as local news. So it does what it promised it would.

To me, it seems like you have a problem with the anchor more than you do the other reporters/anchors or the show itself. Hmmm . . . jealous?

I won’t be reading your stupid OC Weekly, and I’ll make sure to tell others not to.

I’ll make sure the folks over at Daybreak will read this article, but I hope they will advertise on their morning show how awful OC Weekly depicts Orange County. Daybreak is supposed to be for the people of OC, and writing things about their morning news show means you are disrespecting the whole county and its residents. Nice going.

OC Weekly is a stupid tabloid for journalists/writers who could never make it to a real newspaper!

WC
via e-mail

I taped the show on its first day, and it was a TRAIN wreck, a lot of stuff didn't work, the screen was WAY too cluttered, and I have seen better High School TV productions.

Has it gotten better, yes, they got rid of the clutter, but is now basically one person reading news stories with graphics, and occasionally some video footage. To me, the current version is Radio on TV, and still is a pile of crap, especially if you compare it to all the other morning news programs available in the SoCal TV market.

As for the DoM comments, the first sentence says it all... "You should be ashamed. How can you put down Daybreak OC? Let’s not forget you are part of Orange County! Your putting down that show will devalue all Orange County publications." Aka, once again, IMHO, Hey, It is Orange County, it HAS to be good..... Huh??? A spade is a spade, if it was a good program people would say so, currently it is getting a bit better, but I have to switch over after looking at it for a couple of minutes (Heck, people love train wrecks...

And then there is the second comment....

"Daybreak is supposed to be for the people of OC, and writing things about their morning news show means you are disrespecting the whole county and its residents. Nice going."

So first, discussing the show (and giving it publicity is a BAD thing???), are we just to ignore the show and not talk about it at all? Or should we state it was AWFUL on day one, and has had signs of improvement, but still has a LONG way to go to compare to other similar type of programming in the area that is being offered at the same time.... (Gee, sounds like a DCA comment

[Pressler69]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

The only problem with the whole DoM idea is that what defines something as being mediocre is purely opinion.

Not so. There is a general consensus that DCA, the Rocket Rods, Light Magic, etc. were all mediocre Disney products. Sure, nothing is wrong with enjoying all or some of those things, but it's plain as day that those things were all critical and financial failures. DCA has even been bashed in popular culture.

There are Disney products where the general consensus is that they are great. Pirates, Haunted Mansion, or Indy all fall into this area. Sure, it's perfectly okay to not enjoy some or all of those attractions, but it's plain as day that those things were all critical and financial successes and continue to help the park thrive.

And then there are those things where it's hard to form a general consensus on. Stuff like the Pirates additions and Pirate Island seem like they get really mixed reactions.

Imagine if there was a web site like Rotten Tomatoes but for Disneyland attractions. You'd see a wide range of opinions but they all combine to form one general opinion that is true most of the time.

Space Mountain is one of the best and most popular attractions at Disneyand.

DCA is a half-day theme park with little to do and see.

Splash Mountain was a great addition.

None of these statements are facts, but they are generally true.

[rgrant999]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

The only problem with the whole DoM idea is that what defines something as being mediocre is purely opinion. What Al described in his article seemed more like the definition of a fanboy rather than a DoM.
No doubt this prase will get thrown around liberally by the people who think they are the authority on what is mediocre....goodie goodie.

Exactly - it is a pointless exercise.

If I say "I think Indy is awesome!"

Well, if you think it is mediocre, I would be a DOM, if you think it is great, than not.

Again, what I said is the same, it is YOUR opinion that defines me - again, pointless trying to label something that is subjective by nature.

[flynnibus]

Re: 10/9: Dead or Alive?

Oh! My mistake and apologies. I read in a post somewhere, long ago, that Al had created the site, hence my confusion.

Al started Miceage after leaving other sites... Miceage fans wanted a discussion forum, but there was not one for Miceage. So with blessings Dusty lead an effort to start one that was associated with MA.