10/25: Ghosts

[Al Lutz]

Kevin wonders: Is Disney World stale, or nostalgic? Discuss it here...

[Pressler69]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

It gets pretty hot in California and Florida. I'm not going to put on pants instead of shorts because some elitist Disney fans might look down on me for not wearing what was proper theme park attire in the 50s. People dressed better in the 50s. Great. What about everything else that sucked about the 50s?

People wearing shirts with profanity are few and far between. They should be escorted off the property, but it is in no way a sign that park goers as a whole have gotten more rude.

We're not as good as Disneyland guests in the 50s because we walk in the street on Main St.? The place is crowded. You can't even walk in the street without bumping into people no matter how well-meaning you are.

It's easy to look at a thread on a Disneyland message board full of people complaining about rude guests and get the idea that our society is going to hell in a hand basket. Those complaints pale in comparison to the number of people who go to the park without incident.

Are you telling me that people didn't complain that the park was hot and crowded in 1955? Nobody in their pretty petticoats complained about ruffians ruining their stay at 50s era Disneyland? Unfortunately there weren't message boards back then for people to post about their experiences with rude guests 5 minutes after they got home. All we have are people who look at the past with rose colored glasses.

Bygone era? Good riddance. I embrace our new society that wears flip flops and Goofy hats in our hot, crowded theme parks.

[TheManator]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Simple human thinking - the bad always outweighs the good.

[danyoung]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Unfortunately there weren't message boards back then for people to post about their experiences with rude guests 5 minutes after they got home.

This has been my point repeatedly in threads like this. I simply don't believe that society is nosediving as fast as some people say. It's just that every single instance of a bad seed running loose in a Disney park gets picked up and blasted across the internet at the speed of light. Once we get that time machine working and are able to go back to the 50's, my guess is that life on planet Earth isn't really so different as we might imagine.

[Neon Cactus]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

I'm a little confused about the argument that MK is kind of like a museum. In that area of his article, Kevin lists about four changes, like the Tiki Room. Then further down, he also notes how they added Space Mountain, Splash Mountain and Thunder Mountain.

I don't think it's necessarily a museum. Certainly you have attractions that have been around, in the case of the MK, since 1971. But they have added new attractions and subtracted others. Now that doesn't make it unlike a museum either, since there are quite a few museums that change up exhibits and add new exhibits from time to time. But as far as keeping older rides and getting new rides, I think that if people like a ride, they're not going to want it changed, especially if the new one doesn't, in their opinion, match up in quality with the previous attraction.

Take Country Bears. I have no problem with this show being the original. It's the best one of the three. I like the Christmas show, but that's seasonal. And the Vacation Hoedown was OK, but I didn't like it nearly as much as the original. But I am pretty sure that they did have the Vacation Hoedown pretty close to when it debuted at Disneyland, and then switched back, either because of guest opinions, or because they wanted a different show than Disneyland. It could do with a makeover, as the sound system wasn't working very well last summer, but keep the original show.

On the other hand, using Disneyland as an example, while there are some who would rather have the old mine train back, there aren't a whole lot of people who resent Thunder Mountain.

As for clothing, you can't generalize people by the clothes they wear. I generally wear a t-shirt, shorts, and tennis shoes, and I am respectful of the parks, and it's a heck of a lot more comfortable.

[tbminnie]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

As for clothing, you can't generalize people by the clothes they wear. I generally wear a t-shirt, shorts, and tennis shoes, and I am respectful of the parks, and it's a heck of a lot more comfortable.

Exactly! Correlation does not equal causation! Not a hard concept to grasp. Kevin is grapsing at straws here.

[Neon Cactus]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Unless we are supposed to dress like 1955 (or should it be 1971 in the case of MK). Then I guess it would be like a museum and we are part of the exhibit.

If people want to dress up, that's fine for them. If they don't, that's fine too.

[Pretzel]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Kevin Yee said:

What we nay be seeing today is somewhat more akin to entitlement. People have an attitude that they are allowed to dress and behave however they might like, and everyone else's opinion be damned.

Okay, I don't quite agree with you there, but maybe it's your implication - that the TIMES have changed. No, the times have not changed, just Disneyland/Disneyworld's perceived place in the social pecking order. Back when that photograph of well-dressed women was taken, Disneyland was considered an experience that you dressed up for. Today, if you are on the QM2 you will see that people there dress up. It's just socially considered the a place that demands that level of respect. Disney parks are no longer that "exclusive" place that they once were.

This trend continues in many other places. Take cruising, your new favorite hobby, for example! Just as recently as the 1990s, nearly everyone got dressed up for dinner on almost every cruise line. Now? Not so much, although that's changing, one cruise line at a time. I'm sure 10 years from now there will be an article lamenting the demise of respect of fellow cruise passengers, and some "this is the downfall of social manners" theory.

[Gemini Cricket]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

"Well don't you wanna be?
A-hangin' from a tree?
We're mighty glad to see ya
And the parking's always freeeeeeee!
Here at Lester's
Po ...
Po ...
Po ...
Possum Park!"


Love that movie!

[StevieD]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Great article as usual, Kevin. It does bring up many thoughts... First, from Walt's point of view, he always stated that parks would be ever changing. He NEVER envisioned them remaining in a stagnant state. If there was a new technology, he was all over it and wanted to use it to enhance each show. That is what most Disney purists tend to ignore - the ultimate vision of what Walt wanted his park to be - a living, breathing and current place to entertain everyone. What's interesting is that he was faced with the same problem that today's imagineers face - the accountants. The Disney Company's first obligation is to the stock holders - I'm not saying that's right, but it is a business fact. That may leave it as a museum anyway.(Maybe the museum somewhere else is the answer!) But if the imagineers had more money to put into an attraction, there might be less complaining about the results of those that miss the mark due to their financial constraints.

As to the dress standards of both cast members and guests, some "loosening" of the code of cast member apparel isn't all that horrible - sunglasses are essential to protect your eyes against the sun's rays(thank you diminishing ozone layer) and do we all remember the contraversial underwear policy of cast members having to wear the company undergarments? But Disney cannot control society. Lawyers would be chomping at the bit to go after Disney for refusing entrance into the park based on what a person is wearing(freedome of speech, you know...). Yes, it's a private business and if you choose to go or work there, you should know the policies(if you don't like the policy, don't go). But we live in a world of entitlements. Going back to the 50's certainly is not the answer(it was a false utopian society) - the world evolves - for better for worse.

[Esdeebee]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

As for clothing, you can't generalize people by the clothes they wear. I generally wear a t-shirt, shorts, and tennis shoes, and I am respectful of the parks, and it's a heck of a lot more comfortable.

I'd have to agree. I saw nothing more inappropriate than a few t-shirts for those heavy metal bands like Slipknot or something akin to that. Granted, some of the imagery on those shirts is questionable, but on a whole, they're only offensive if you make a point to take offense at them...

I wore t-shirts, shorts and Reeboks for 7 days, sometimes having to wring them out at the end of the day (especially at DAK). My kids wore t-shirts, too...more than one which were bought either in WDW or at a Disney store...

I'm not certain, though, that this is what Kevin is complaining about. I think this attire is entirely appropriate for a theme park visit, but I believe there are types of attire that are not appropriate...

[sediment]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

1950's didn't have wide-screen TVs. Heck, not even stereos. Only Black and White.
"Pleasantville" was a great movie depicting, in exaggerated terms, the staleness of the 50's.

[Steve DeGaetano]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Society in Southern California has changed for the worse. People who live in that society don't see it.

Now that I live in North Carolina, I am able to full grasp how far Southern California has devolved. Here, people are still respectful of others. Kids open doors for adults struggling with heavy loads. Folks whom I don't know wave as they drive though my neighborhood. People leave their engine's running when making quick stops at the convenience mart, without fear of their car being driven off. Kids don't have to worry about getting shot in the street or getting kidnapped. There is virtually NO grafitti.

Sure, bad stuff happens occasionally, but overall, LA and environs are a pit, and much of the "entitlement" attitude that pervades the region invades Disneyland as well.

I'm sure Kevin, as a former resident of this state, understands what I'm saying.

[Esdeebee]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

But Disney cannot control society. Lawyers would be chomping at the bit to go after Disney for refusing entrance into the park based on what a person is wearing(freedome of speech, you know...). Yes, it's a private business and if you choose to go or work there, you should know the policies(if you don't like the policy, don't go). But we live in a world of entitlements. Going back to the 50's certainly is not the answer(it was a false utopian society) - the world evolves - for better for worse.

True enough that Disney cannot control society,but as far as lawyers suing Disney for enforcing a certain standard in dress code, I don't know about that. In the next line, the part about it being a private business is paramount. It's like the right to privacy. We don't have any rights to privacy in our places of employment, and while we can do and wear more or less whatever we want in public (though I think there are still enforceable "obscenities laws" that can get you arrested in some areas for what your shirt might say, or what YOU might say in public, even), we cannot necessarily do so on private property. Lawyers might take a swat at it, but I would think they'd be shot down pretty quick, if Disney did decide to strictly enforce standards in dress code, for CM's and guests...

[Cap'n Jack]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

In some ways the attire the guests wear at the park IS Disney's own fault. There are two reasons I believe this to be true.

1) When they eliminated the A thru E ticket book, they were saying to the guests "come and stay all day and night" for one price. Before that time when my parents took us to Disneyland we stayed at most 6 hours until our tickets were exhausted, and maybe be bought a couple of extra "E" tickets to redo some of the better attractions. But in no way did we ever imagine staying for a marathon of 12 or more hours like today. How can someone dress up in more formal attire and then spend an entire day (and night) and be comfortable.

[danyoung]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

... and do we all remember the contraversial underwear policy of cast members having to wear the company undergarments?

Outside of the Mormon church, I've never read anything about any company, much less Disney, requiring anyone to wear specific underwear. Please elucidate!

[danyoung]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

1) When they eliminated the A thru E ticket book, they were saying to the guests "come and stay all day and night" for one price. Before that time when my parents took us to Disneyland we stayed at most 6 hours until our tickets were exhausted, and maybe be bought a couple of extra "E" tickets to redo some of the better attractions. But in no way did we ever imagine staying for a marathon of 12 or more hours like today.

That may have been your family's routine, but it certainly wasn't ours. We always got to the park at opening, and stayed till they kicked us out. We had to be careful with our tickets, especially the precious E coupons, and spread things out to where we didn't run out. Or else we had to be well enough funded so that when early evening came along we could buy a book of those 5 coupons that you could use for anything, A through E. Of course we'd be stupid if we didn't spend them all on E ticket rides. But with careful planning you were riding your last ride just as the park closed.

As to AP'ers being more casual than other visitors, perhaps you've seen something that I haven't. It seems to me that everyone is visiting in more casual, park-appropriate wear like shorts and tshirts. Some people push the limits of good taste, but these same people are in plain sight every time I visit a mall or go to a movie, so it doesn't bother me any more in a Disney park than it does anywhere else.

[sediment]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

"Dress Codes" for guests relaxed slowly to what they are now (hardly any). Comparing now to then is jarring as a result.

A complaint I like to bring around every so often is that some attractions were built on the theory that they could be inexpensively changed or plussed, but then they are never changed or plussed. Instead, budget issues force these attractions' easy upgrades attractions.

As an example, Country Bears in DL were mothballed (I hope, as opposed to destroyed) instead of simply changing the show.
Same is happening with Soarin'. It should be a lot easier to film more scenes and program the choreography than to tear it down for something better. But, it would be even easier to tear it down and replace it with something worse.
Same was happening with WDW's HM. Big problem was that it's a guest-eater and a popular attraction. Biting the bullet and closing it for an extended period would mean having to deal with complaints. I'm glad someone bit the bullet.

[darth muppet]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

I found the Alfred Hitchcock cameo of this article! He's in the Astroblasters picture, on the right.

[sediment]

Re: 10/25: Ghosts

Society in Southern California has changed for the worse. People who live in that society don't see it.

Now that I live in North Carolina, I am able to full grasp how far Southern California has devolved. Here, people are still respectful of others. Kids open doors for adults struggling with heavy loads. Folks whom I don't know wave as they drive though my neighborhood. People leave their engine's running when making quick stops at the convenience mart, without fear of their car being driven off. Kids don't have to worry about getting shot in the street or getting kidnapped. There is virtually NO grafitti.

Sure, bad stuff happens occasionally, but overall, LA and environs are a pit, and much of the "entitlement" attitude that pervades the region invades Disneyland as well.

I'm sure Kevin, as a former resident of this state, understands what I'm saying.

Yeah, but the downside is that you're in North Carolina.