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  • #21
    Re: Reputation comments

    I find myself less likely to use the rep system now. It's got to *really* be something, either offensive or awesome, for me to give any feedback under the new system. My choices for feedback are now 1- clutter up the thread with personal notes, or 2- give a meaningless "pick an option" rep.

    Sure, I can send a private message, but in a thread? I'm very very unlikely to actually do so.
    I pledge allegiance to the Earth, one planet, many gods, and to the universe in which she spins.

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    • #22
      Re: Reputation comments

      Originally posted by Barbaraann View Post
      The Report Post button is still there, and MiceChatters need to use that to alert moderators to posts that contain issues that are definitely against MiceChat's general rule of conduct.
      The report button is all that is needed really, no need for a helpful/unhelpful button that turns into some sort of reward system.

      If anything the like/dislike button should be made public for the same reasons if that's the case. I think that would help curb some of the issues previously with the system. I know on other boards I frequent part of the problem with the neg reputation was that people could hide behind a button, but once it was made public it curbed a lot of the problems. Just my two cents on the matter.

      People need to be able to stand behind what they feel about a post if it compels them enough to push a button in one direction or another. The internet itself is an anonymous abyss as it is, this would help make the system much clearer to those here on micechat and help keep those accountable from abusing the system as well.
      "Up" is a relative concept. It has no intrinsic value.







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      • #23
        Re: Reputation comments

        I think that a poster should have to be a MCer for at least a year, or 1,000 posts before they can contribute to the rep system.

        And, if not the above, then like/dislike system should be implemented.
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        This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

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        • #24
          Re: Reputation comments

          Originally posted by ghosty4 View Post
          There should be a "LIKE" option, and a "REPORT" option with a reason. That's it. None of this "Helpful" "VERY HELPFUL" "Unhelpful" weighted classification.
          The purpose of the system is to be a self moderating system. A community driven policing - not what you agree with or like. The system is a way to encourage constructive behavior and crowd source flagging inappropriate behavior and providing a feedback loop to the user.

          Simple 'likes' don't meet that need at all.

          A like/+1 type model is for entirely different purposes. The problem becomes when people use the system as like/dislike instead of being about constructive/abusive behavior

          ---------- Post added 07-04-2012 at 05:10 PM ----------

          Originally posted by penguinsoda View Post
          If members only have specific choice to pick from, maybe they will think a bit more about marking a post and will be more inclined to mark it if it meets the criteria stated, and not just because they "like" a post or something along those lines.
          If someone wants to pump rep outside the purpose of the system.. The label restrictions really are meaningless. The label is just the intermediate means- it doesn't change the REWARD which is what must be altered if you want to correct behavior.

          Hiding titles removes the reward .. But also will ultimately lowere the visibility of the system causing less people to leave positive rep overall. Thus making neg rep even more powerful. People will fall back to using it only to punish and never reward
          Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


          Am I evil? yes, I am
          Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

          Originally posted by sleepyjeff
          Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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          • #25
            Re: Reputation comments

            When experimenting with rep systems in the past, the idea came up to have both positive and negative points be clearly visible along with who gave them.

            This leads to retaliatory rep points which were not deserved (both for legitimate and non-legitimate points) and open fighting between members in some cases following a negative reputation being given. That is not optimal or fair for anyone, and that is why the current system has been made specifically to show the given reason to the receiving member in case a point is undeserved, so it can be cleared up by Moderation staff. Generating personal arguments between members which may well result from showing who gave each negative point is not a desirable outcome and will happen at least once even in the most friendly, agreeable community if the information on member negative repping someone is shared publicly. All current negative reputation points thought not to be valid are stripped of value by site staff, either after finding them on our own or them being reported to us. The value of showing who gave neg reps is far outweighed by potential harmful uses and fighting between members which could occur was the consensus of staff.

            The purpose of this overhaul is indeed to 'discourage' the using of the rep system as a like or dislike tool. Disagreeing with someone's take on something or giving positive points wantonly for one-word responses or because something was found 'funny' that didn't contribute to a thread weakens the system and artificially demerits or promotes users, and the goal is to cut down on that via having the specific reasons which are easily appraised by site staff.

            If a beneficial tip or answer to a question is given, or a in-depth trip report posted, or a thoughtful answer posted as a response in a discussion, that should be used to increase member status. The same goes for abusive behavior, name calling, or dismissing of the opinions of others being the posts which warrant negative attention. Site staff tailored the current feedback system to accommodate that and watches all incoming rep to ensure fair use and is glad to help any member in the case they receive a undeserved negative point.

            No system so far has been 'perfect', and this one is still being tweaked, but the goal of it and of the site staff is always to strike a balance between what is fair to our membership, easy to use for them, accurately rewards or demerits posts that deserve it with the lowest possible margin of error, and most conducive to handling on the moderator end given we are all unpaid volunteers. The reputation system in some format has proven before to be a helpful tool to manage 'at a glance' current happenings with individual members on the forum and find helpful posts worthy of attention and praise, not just find when the rules laid down by the site owners are disregarded or 'troublesome' posts being made.
            Last edited by RegionsBeyond; 07-04-2012, 02:12 PM.
            when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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            • #26
              Re: Reputation comments

              The 'one word rep' problem should have been fixed by having the rep removed just like bad negative rep was. It's exactly the same thing. If mods were screening rep fully this wouldn't be an issue. This just buries the problem by saying 'well now we don't have to worry about inappropriate comments!' by making them not possible. It doesn't stop the wrong rep, what the rep does, or change the motivations for leaving rep.

              This is a horrible horrible 'stick your head in the sand' way to address the problem.
              Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


              Am I evil? yes, I am
              Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

              Originally posted by sleepyjeff
              Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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              • #27
                Re: Reputation comments

                I just wish that "Helpful"/"Unhelpful" status would be displayed again. I think that calling someone on the carpet like that in front of the whole community is an excellent way of motivating people to try to make friendlier posts.
                "Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada."

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                • #28
                  Re: Reputation comments

                  "Playing By The Rules". Some people always will, and then some will always thumb their noses at it. Rewards are nice, and I do understand that it motivates a lot of people to receive public recognition for their efforts.

                  A lot goes on, behind the scenes, that we never hear about and perhaps would not understand. I think, overall, MiceChat does a great job policing the troublemakers. If they didn't, I wouldn't have stayed around here as long as I have.

                  It is the responsibility of the MiceChat Administration to inform us of the rules of the site. It is even more important that the members abide by those rules, and make sure that they understand them. They have changed the specifics of this self moderating system called "reputation", many times over the years. The main purpose being to better the MiceChat experience for all of us. I am sure that will continue as long as MiceChat is in existence.
                  BarbaraAnn

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                  • #29
                    Re: Reputation comments

                    I rarely use the rep system, but I've reported posts that clearly broke the rules. One feature that seems underutilized is the "rate this thread" drop-down. That reflects less upon individual members (except perhaps for the thread originator) and more upon the body of comments that follows.
                    Have bicycle, will ride. Finished 2012 with 10,089 miles, 683 hours, and 482,000 feet of elevation gain.
                    2013: 201 rides, 8171 miles, 544 hours, 480K feet.
                    2014 so far: 7846 miles, 451,000 feet
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                    • #30
                      Re: Reputation comments

                      I remember way back when I first joined MiceChat, and I started noticing this thing called "reputation". I liked getting good comments from other members. I gave good comments to other members as well. I was scared at the time to ever give anyone bad comments, or negative reputation. Retaliation was the main reason, of course, and I was definitely super sensitive way back then.

                      I remember a comment that Dusty made about "reporting the post" instead. It made a lot of sense, and he explained to me the reasoning behind using that feature.

                      A community is only as strong as it members, and since MiceChat has a self-moderation system in place, I feel the members should use it. Both to commend those who contribute positively, and to reprimand those who don't. Whether negative reputation is used, or the "report post" feature is activated. They both go a long way to keeping our community strong.
                      BarbaraAnn

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                      • #31
                        Re: Reputation comments

                        Originally posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
                        The purpose of this overhaul is indeed to 'discourage' the using of the rep system as a like or dislike tool. Disagreeing with someone's take on something or giving positive points wantonly for one-word responses or because something was found 'funny' that didn't contribute to a thread weakens the system and artificially demerits or promotes users, and the goal is to cut down on that via having the specific reasons which are easily appraised by site staff.
                        This just makes wrongful use easier because people who are not within each other's presence are much more comfortable with lying. Instead of having to state some reason, the option is just there to be chosen. The lying is only going to be broken if every reputation and associated post is screen for compliance with the stated reasoning and then members who do act otherwise are contacted. That seems like more work to make it work than reviewing written comments.

                        While it might be easy to figure out who gave a negative reputation, I think the ability to see written negative comments would have been helpful. It would allow members to see why it is happening, especially if it is happening a lot to somebody like a new member.

                        Ignorance also seemed to be an issue. I noticed a few posts of people asking why they were being hit with the Unhelpful marking. Maybe just a sentence or two about how it is possible to have reputation reviewed and discussed on the top of the page where the given points are listed along with link to send a message.

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                        • #32
                          Re: Reputation comments

                          Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                          This just makes wrongful use easier because people who are not within each other's presence are much more comfortable with lying. Instead of having to state some reason, the option is just there to be chosen. The lying is only going to be broken if every reputation and associated post is screen for compliance with the stated reasoning and then members who do act otherwise are contacted. That seems like more work to make it work than reviewing written comments.

                          While it might be easy to figure out who gave a negative reputation, I think the ability to see written negative comments would have been helpful. It would allow members to see why it is happening, especially if it is happening a lot to somebody like a new member.

                          Ignorance also seemed to be an issue. I noticed a few posts of people asking why they were being hit with the Unhelpful marking. Maybe just a sentence or two about how it is possible to have reputation reviewed and discussed on the top of the page where the given points are listed along with link to send a message.
                          Every reputation point given, positive and negative, is reviewed personally by a moderator under the new system and removed/written to involved members if it is not valid or deserved. There is that level of oversight and actually fairly easy to see if the post doesn't match up to the stated reason.

                          As for allowing custom comments to accompany negative rep written by the member, those were given before but not visible to receiving member. In a fairly high amount of instances, the reason stated was not a reason to give neg rep or not properly used: therefore, the list of standardized reasons was agreed upon.

                          And that is a valid point of knowledge of how to get rep reviewed if not deserved: we are working on making that aspect more public currently still.
                          when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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                          • #33
                            Re: Reputation comments

                            Originally posted by RegionsBeyond View Post
                            Every reputation point given, positive and negative, is reviewed personally by a moderator under the new system and removed/written to involved members if it is not valid or deserved. There is that level of oversight and actually fairly easy to see if the post doesn't match up to the stated reason.
                            Then there should be no reason comments should be hidden anymore.

                            But I find it amusing to think that new comments will somehow make it so all rep can now be reviewed... when it wasn't possible to do before? This new change will make manpower and scale magically appear? While making the individual determination of validity will ultimately be that much harder to decipher?

                            If it's possible to scan every rep given (as stated will be happening now...) then one should have been able to do the same before. If bad rep was a problem before - it should have been addressed with the users who couldn't understand the system. Warn, and then remove their ability to leave rep for a period of time. It's trivial to achieve that in vbulletin.

                            The same abusing members can continue to do so in the 'new' system if you continue to fail to address users who misuse the system.

                            The problems with the old system appear to be:
                            1 - lack of awareness of what the system was to be used for (could have been addressed in the templates when the popup was shown or with perm announcements)
                            2 - lack of screening rep by staff
                            3 - an inability to break the cycle of misuse

                            This new system is trying to tie people's hands to make them behave instead of educating them how to behave and addressing the ones that don't.

                            You can't force people to only use certain words to express themselves. This is proven time and time again through history.
                            Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                            Am I evil? yes, I am
                            Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                            Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                            Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                            • #34
                              Re: Reputation comments

                              With these changes, I won't give negative rep because doing so anonymously is pure cowardice.
                              Everyone has a right to face their accuser.

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                              • #35
                                Re: Reputation comments

                                Originally posted by ScottG View Post
                                Everyone has a right to face their accuser.
                                Those who insist their "rights" are being violated seem to not understand that MiceChat is not the U.S.A. and is not governed by a Constitution. It is a private site with rules of conduct established by the site owners -- rules which one agrees to when joining the site as a member.
                                Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 08-11-2012, 03:19 PM.
                                "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                                it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                                together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                                designed to appeal to everyone."

                                - Walt Disney

                                "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                                - Michael Eisner

                                "It's very symbiotic."
                                - Bob Chapek

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                                • #36
                                  Re: Reputation comments

                                  Yes, you've made it clear you disagree and of course, "I" understand why.
                                  BTW, It's not so much a matter of "rights", it's a matter of character - IMO.
                                  And there's nothing in the rules that say I have to give negative rep.
                                  Last edited by ScottG; 08-11-2012, 05:44 PM.

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Reputation comments

                                    I have always been a bit squeamish about giving negative rep, so I usually report a post when I see something that I feel needs immediate attention. I feel by doing that, I am helping to keep MiceChat a happy place to post.
                                    BarbaraAnn

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Reputation comments

                                      That does sound like a nicer way of doing things Barbaraann :bow:

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Reputation comments

                                        Now I'm thinking, that there should only be a "report" button.

                                        Since I've been here, in my humble opinion, the chat here is getting too PC.
                                        I remember when it was more jovial and less serious, unless it was about DCA or Eisner. The "fun" of coming here was to feel happy and know that others here reveled in DL as much as you did. But, you could speak your mind without getting suspended or banned unless you were just trolling. Now, it seems like the majority want to come here for a b*tch session and complain about DL. Then they gang up on you if you have a different opinion. At least that's what it feels like to me. Maybe I'm getting too old or maybe the young'uns aren't respecting DL as much as I would like. Anywho, that's my story. Thanks for listening.
                                        sigpic

                                        This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Reputation comments

                                          Originally posted by Druggas View Post
                                          Now I'm thinking, that there should only be a "report" button.

                                          Since I've been here, in my humble opinion, the chat here is getting too PC.
                                          I remember when it was more jovial and less serious, unless it was about DCA or Eisner. The "fun" of coming here was to feel happy and know that others here reveled in DL as much as you did. But, you could speak your mind without getting suspended or banned unless you were just trolling. Now, it seems like the majority want to come here for a b*tch session and complain about DL. Then they gang up on you if you have a different opinion. At least that's what it feels like to me. Maybe I'm getting too old or maybe the young'uns aren't respecting DL as much as I would like. Anywho, that's my story. Thanks for listening.
                                          MiceChat in a nutshell. How I'd love to turn back the clock.

                                          It's been a long and winding road from there to here, and quite frankly it's not as much fun as it should be.
                                          BarbaraAnn

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